The Politics Thread 2019

[Archied]

6 hours ago, eddie said:

I know...

Let's wish we aren't in the EU.

Didn't work? Oh dear. Let's try it again 2 or 3 more times. Still didn't work? Once more's a charm.

That concludes today's lesson in Modern Conservatism.

Tune in tomorrow for your introduction to Advanced Boris, where he says "Give us a deal - no, not that one, a different one, with high-tech Irish border unicorns that haven't been built yet. If you don't, we'll leave on October 31st without any deal at all, and then Nigel will disrupt your whole operation", without actually realising that if we do actually leave on October 31st, Nigel will no longer be in a position to disrupt anything. Except the occasional barmaid.

Dear oh dear ,I’m 100 percent with you on Boris so that leaves us a straight choice between Boris and Corbyn who in my opinion over the last 12 months has undone any of the respect he was starting to build up , you see like with livingstone I have no real problem with them being accused of talking with terrorist s as it’s been proved that like in Ireland with the ira you have to at some point try to find peace and that is never achieved by just meating out more violence in these situations ( yes there is a time and place for that when you have no choice )but to keep respect for that position you have to be consistent so to then refuse to attend a state banquet for the us president just blows your credibility out of the water, same with the mayor of london  , he represents ALL Londoners not just anti trump ones , then Corbyn s fence sitting over brexit just compounds things ,, as I say dear oh dear what a piss poor choice the voter of this country are faced with

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Dear oh dear ,I’m 100 percent with you on Boris so that leaves us a straight choice between Boris and Corbyn who in my opinion over the last 12 months has undone any of the respect he was starting to build up , you see like with livingstone I have no real problem with them being accused of talking with terrorist s as it’s been proved that like in Ireland with the ira you have to at some point try to find peace and that is never achieved by just meating out more violence in these situations ( yes there is a time and place for that when you have no choice )but to keep respect for that position you have to be consistent so to then refuse to attend a state banquet for the us president just blows your credibility out of the water, same with the mayor of london  , he represents ALL Londoners not just anti trump ones , then Corbyn s fence sitting over brexit just compounds things ,, as I say dear oh dear what a piss poor choice the voter of this country are faced with

Talking to the IRA was an attempt to bring peace and years of violence. It worked. 

There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time.

Trump has zero moral authority and often stirs tensions to play to his uneducated/bigoted base. Not going to Trump's dinner was the right thing to do, especially when the Home Secretary was not invited. Trump's comment about the London Mayor should have excluded him from been invited in the first place. The guy is scum and we should stand up to him.

Actually, he reminds me of a particular uk politician...

[Stive Pesley]

Starting to wonder about Boris. Yes he's always wanted to be PM but even he must know that the PM who takes the country out of the EU on no deal is in for the hardest time. His time as Mayor of London showed his lack of actual political skill. He can't bumble his way though a no deal brexit making funny gaffes when the whole country is teetering on the brink of collapse and actually needs it's strongest most capable ever leader, can he?

I suspect he will want to come 2nd and let one of the other idiots mess it up so he can ride in and be the saviour next time. 

Or maybe not ?

[eddie]

5 hours ago, Archied said:

Dear oh dear ,I’m 100 percent with you on Boris so that leaves us a straight choice between Boris and Corbyn who in my opinion over the last 12 months has undone any of the respect he was starting to build up , you see like with livingstone I have no real problem with them being accused of talking with terrorist s as it’s been proved that like in Ireland with the ira you have to at some point try to find peace and that is never achieved by just meating out more violence in these situations ( yes there is a time and place for that when you have no choice )but to keep respect for that position you have to be consistent so to then refuse to attend a state banquet for the us president just blows your credibility out of the water, same with the mayor of london  , he represents ALL Londoners not just anti trump ones , then Corbyn s fence sitting over brexit just compounds things ,, as I say dear oh dear what a piss poor choice the voter of this country are faced with

I'm voting Lib Dem, until Labour come to their senses. And then I will still probably vote Lib Dem. Like Brexit, a binary choice is unworkable because it by definition is confrontational, and by its very nature therefore tries to rule compromise out of the equation.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Talking to the IRA was an attempt to bring peace and years of violence. It worked. 

There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time.

Trump has zero moral authority and often stirs tensions to play to his uneducated/bigoted base. Not going to Trump's dinner was the right thing to do, especially when the Home Secretary was not invited. Trump's comment about the London Mayor should have excluded him from been invited in the first place. The guy is scum and we should stand up to him.

Actually, he reminds me of a particular uk politician...

I can't believe you have just said there was a form of legitimacy to the IRA campaign of violence and that Corbyn had some sort of serious input to the eventual peace negotiated by the Blair govt....being a genuine sympathiser of the republican cause does not make you a peacemaker in a deeply divided sectarian country,it achieves exactly the opposite.

And whatever you or I might think of trump,he was democratically elected by the American people and will stand or fall as a result of democratic processes.

What are you on.

[Leeds Ram]

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Talking to the IRA was an attempt to bring peace and years of violence. It worked. 

There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time.

Trump has zero moral authority and often stirs tensions to play to his uneducated/bigoted base. Not going to Trump's dinner was the right thing to do, especially when the Home Secretary was not invited. Trump's comment about the London Mayor should have excluded him from been invited in the first place. The guy is scum and we should stand up to him.

Actually, he reminds me of a particular uk politician...

I mean if corbyn was any kind of deal maker in the issue of Ireland this would make sense. The problem is he wasn't. In fact, he was repeatedly criticised for his conduct by the person who did the most to bring peace in that area of the world (Mo Mowlam). It's an easy honest mistake to make because there has been an alternative history created by many on twitter that Jeremy is some modern day Jesus just bringing peace and love to the world. It's the same with his repeatedly dodgy actions with regards to Israel Palestine....  If you look closely at his actions and his quotations you'll find he's simply sympathetic to the overall aims of these groups. The material on the IRA and Hamas is extensive as is his cosy relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran. 

Not going to Trump's dinner was a mistake and his line in the sand needs to be consistent. If Corbyn finds trump so repellent why did he meet and chat with Xi Jinping when he came? A man who has literal muslim concentration camps in Xinjiang and has an authoritarian streak which is extreme for China. Corbyn's managed to be in the company of some very dodgy people (Assad just to start off with) and yet he manages to find Trump (A wannabee autocrat who is constrained by the US institutions) beyond the pale. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, eddie said:

I'm voting Lib Dem, until Labour come to their senses. And then I will still probably vote Lib Dem. Like Brexit, a binary choice is unworkable because it by definition is confrontational, and by its very nature therefore tries to rule compromise out of the equation.

I voted Green in the euro elections and am tempted to stick with them or go lib dems tactically in a 1st past the post vote.

[1of4]

6 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Starting to wonder about Boris. Yes he's always wanted to be PM but even he must know that the PM who takes the country out of the EU on no deal is in for the hardest time. His time as Mayor of London showed his lack of actual political skill. He can't bumble his way though a no deal brexit making funny gaffes when the whole country is teetering on the brink of collapse and actually needs it's strongest most capable ever leader, can he?

I suspect he will want to come 2nd and let one of the other idiots mess it up so he can ride in and be the saviour next time. 

Or maybe not ?

Haven't we already had this synario when May was elected.

The trouble for Johnson was that May was so inept as PM. She failed so completely in achieving brexit that she was removed before she could do Johnson's dirty work for him. So now Johnson will probably become PM before he'd have liked.

It looks as if Johnson will be the person who'll go down in history as the PM that lead us out of Europe, unless he somehow cocks-up during the Tory leadership election.

A hard brexit is looking more and more likely on how we will be leaving Europe A method that leave campaigners, that included Johnson, told us would only be a final option, because getting a good deal with the EU would be so quick and easy.

If a hard brexit goes how the the leave supporters are now claiming it will go. Johnson will happily take the plaudits and to be hailed as a hero, for leading us to that wonderful utopian world. A world where the rich are richer and the poor will know their place.

If on the other hand, if brexit turns out to be bad for the country. Then I'm sure that Johnson would soon be claiming that it wasn't his fault and it was the fault of his predecessors, for not getting a deal sorted. Conveniently forgetting he'd voted against a deal negotiated between us and the EU.

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Haven't we already had this synario when May was elected.

The trouble for Johnson was that May was so inept as PM. She failed so completely in achieving brexit that she was removed before she could do Johnson's dirty work for him. So now Johnson will probably become PM before he'd have liked.

It looks as if Johnson will be the person who'll go down in history as the PM that lead us out of Europe, unless he somehow cocks-up during the Tory leadership election.

A hard brexit is looking more and more likely on how we will be leaving Europe A method that leave campaigners, that included Johnson, told us would only be a final option, because getting a good deal with the EU would be so quick and easy.

If a hard brexit goes how the the leave supporters are now claiming it will go. Johnson will happily take the plaudits and to be hailed as a hero, for leading us to that wonderful utopian world. A world where the rich are richer and the poor will know their place.

If on the other hand, if brexit turns out to be bad for the country. Then I'm sure that Johnson would soon be claiming that it wasn't his fault and it was the fault of his predecessors, for not getting a deal sorted. Conveniently forgetting he'd voted against a deal negotiated between us and the EU.

He forgets a lot of things that are inconvenient for him does boris.....?

[jono]

On 14/06/2019 at 17:01, HantsRam said:

Theresa May lost the window of opportunity for compromise and for this alone, she deserves to be reviled for a considerable time, the utter dimwitted buffoon. Soon to be supplanted by another dimwitted buffoon it would seem..........

I just don’t buy that. Even as a remainer myself

She tried b hard to honour the referendum for all its failings. To say she lost the window is pretty spiteful when the window was there for parliament. A rational deal was there but the Brexit wing wasn’t playing, the DUP wasn’t playing and Corbyn certainly wasn’t 

to lay it at Mays door is rubbish. MP’s get to vote as individuals if they have any courage that is. A better deal then? Yeah right Corbyn was going to get loads extra ? ?...... fairy land 

[Van der MoodHoover]

30 minutes ago, jono said:

I just don’t buy that. Even as a remainer myself

She tried b hard to honour the referendum for all its failings. To say she lost the window is pretty spiteful when the window was there for parliament. A rational deal was there but the Brexit wing wasn’t playing, the DUP wasn’t playing and Corbyn certainly wasn’t 

to lay it at Mays door is rubbish. MP’s get to vote as individuals if they have any courage that is. A better deal then? Yeah right Corbyn was going to get loads extra ? ?...... fairy land 

Balls.

Theresa May alone defined what Brexit meant.

"Brexit means brexit"

"A red white and blue Brexit "

"No deal is better than a bad deal"

 

All her words.

The moment was just after the referendum was won. She still had a parliamentary majority. She could have reached out, tried to build a compromise. 

All her choices that she didn't make. Thought herself mandated...the rest is history. 

[GboroRam]

33 minutes ago, jono said:

 Yeah right Corbyn was going to get loads extra ? ?...... fairy land 

Depends what a better deal looks like. If you think the Canada model is better, or Switzerland, that's probably achievable. If a "reset the clock" revoke and resubmit article 50 could be passed through parliament, maybe the EU would consider it (honestly no idea on that one). 

The problem is that people now are realising that any deal will be lesser than we get from full membership. That's why no deal is so popular - truly kicking the can down the road. Why will we get a better deal after leaving with no deal than we can get agreed before we leave? But that way boris gets to be PM and he will worry about who to blame if it all goes wrong later. 

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I can't believe you have just said there was a form of legitimacy to the IRA campaign of violence and that Corbyn had some sort of serious input to the eventual peace negotiated by the Blair govt....being a genuine sympathiser of the republican cause does not make you a peacemaker in a deeply divided sectarian country,it achieves exactly the opposite.

And whatever you or I might think of trump,he was democratically elected by the American people and will stand or fall as a result of democratic processes.

What are you on.

I actually said "There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time."

So, for example, you think the Easter Rising of 1916 was totally and utterly unjustified?

You also have a lot of faith in the 'democratic' process of the USA. Democracies have elected some awful humans over the years. It doesn't mean we should indulge and legitimise them.

Hell, some Americans might even sit up and take note if a fairly balanced country like the UK is rejecting Trump. They won't ever know though, as their media makes ours look like utopia.

 

[ossieram]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I actually said "There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time."

So, for example, you think the Easter Rising of 1916 was totally and utterly unjustified?

You also have a lot of faith in the 'democratic' process of the USA. Democracies have elected some awful humans over the years. It doesn't mean we should indulge and legitimise them.

Hell, some Americans might even sit up and take note if a fairly balanced country like the UK is rejecting Trump. They won't ever know though, as their media makes ours look like utopia.

 

You really think our country is balanced? And do you truly believe that the majority of this country reject Trump?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, ossieram said:

You really think our country is balanced? And do you truly believe that the majority of this country reject Trump?

Compared to most countries in the world we are very balanced. The US used to operate on similar way to us. That seems to be rapidly changing. I also think a majority of people in the uk find Trump a laughable and grotesque person to have as president. If I'm incorrect in that assumption, we are fkd.

[Highgate]

Just now, old ram 15 said:

I mean if corbyn was any kind of deal maker in the issue of Ireland this would make sense. The problem is he wasn't. In fact, he was repeatedly criticised for his conduct by the person who did the most to bring peace in that area of the world (Mo Mowlam). It's an easy honest mistake to make because there has been an alternative history created by many on twitter that Jeremy is some modern day Jesus just bringing peace and love to the world. It's the same with his repeatedly dodgy actions with regards to Israel Palestine....  If you look closely at his actions and his quotations you'll find he's simply sympathetic to the overall aims of these groups. The material on the IRA and Hamas is extensive as is his cosy relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Respectfully disagree there, that would have to be John Hume.  he dedicated his whole political career to trying to bring about an end to the violence in NI.  It was his persistence and courage that finally persuaded Gerry Adams to seek his objective by peaceful political means rather than by violence. Adams then, had the influence to persuade the IRA to end their campaign and the Good Friday Agreement followed.  Hume was harshly criticized for years from all angles for talking to terrorists, yet he never gave up, convinced that dialogue was the only way to bring about peace.  After Hume's breakthrough, others contributed hugely too, including Mowlam (even Blair, who obviously won't be remembered as a peacemaker in other parts of the world).  They were able to persuade unionists to enter into talks with the republicans, but the crucial step was always going to be getting the IRA to cease, first and foremost.  And for that, the man to thank is John Hume.

Even though the sectarian violence has ended (mostly), the sectarian divide still exists and it wouldn't take much for the violence to re-emerge. That's why the Irish/UK border issue is such a delicate issue  Whatever form Brexit eventually does or does not take, hopefully it won't end up jeopardizing the all too fragile peace in Northern Ireland. 

[RamNut]

What is the hard bexit alternative to the irish border solution?

have they ever said?

[ariotofmyown]

16 minutes ago, RamNut said:

What is the hard bexit alternative to the irish border solution?

have they ever said?

That is just details

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

What is the hard bexit alternative to the irish border solution?

have they ever said?

Something futuristic. Like out of Star Trek.

[eddie]

13 hours ago, HantsRam said:

Balls.

Theresa May alone defined what Brexit meant.

"Brexit means brexit"

"A red white and blue Brexit "

"No deal is better than a bad deal"

 

All her words.

The moment was just after the referendum was won. She still had a parliamentary majority. She could have reached out, tried to build a compromise. 

All her choices that she didn't make. Thought herself mandated...the rest is history. 

Completely agree. People who are defending Theresa May because it's hard to juggle goldfish are conveniently forgetting that the goldfish wer hers, and choosing to juggle them was her decision from the start.