The Politics Thread 2019

[G STAR RAM]

18 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

As regards the Farage poster, I thought the remain camp were very poor in pointing out that more immigrants were coming from outside the EU than inside.

There was a valid immigration debate to be had but Farage was deliberately stoking racism for private financial gain for him and his hedge fund backers.

 

Not sure where racism even came into the debate. 

Our doors are open to EU migrants - correct

Germany taking in the Syrians gave them direct access to UK - correct

Our borders are open to up to 420m (think that was the figure used) people completely unvetted - correct

Where does racism come into it?

[AndyinLiverpool]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure where racism even came into the debate. 

Our doors are open to EU migrants - correct

Germany taking in the Syrians gave them direct access to UK - correct

Our borders are open to up to 420m (think that was the figure used) people completely unvetted - correct

Where does racism come into it?

Actually not correct.

The Uk retained its boarder controls and a Syrian registered in Germany has or had no automatic right to enter the UK.

If people are entering through ports unvetted, it's because they are not being checked at our border. That's a problem with the UK Border Force, not EU freedom of movement.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Actually not correct.

The Uk retained its boarder controls and a Syrian registered in Germany has or had no automatic right to enter the UK.

If people are entering through ports unvetted, it's because they are not being checked at our border. That's a problem with the UK Border Force, not EU freedom of movement.

OK, thank you for the correction. 

If my understanding is correct though, after 5 years? in Germany they will qualify for a German passport and then be able to travel freely throughout the EU.

Once again though happy to be corrected if I'm talking rubbish.

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

If my understanding is correct though, after 5 years? in Germany they will qualify for a German passport and then be able to travel freely throughout the EU.

So unless we have a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, that will always be an issue right?

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So unless we have a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, that will always be an issue right?

Yes fair comment

[Bwash_Ram]

SOCIALISM: You have 2 cows. The state takes one and gives it to your neighbor.

COMMUNISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and shoots you.

EU BUREAUCRATISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM: You have 2 cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

SURREALISM: You have 2 giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has died.

A GREEK CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You borrow lots of euros to build barns, milking sheds, hay stores, feed sheds, dairies, cold stores, abattoir, cheese unit and packing sheds. You still only have two cows.

A FRENCH CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce 20 times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called a Cowkimona and market it worldwide.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows, but you don't know where they are. You decide to have lunch.

A SWISS CORPORATION: You have 5,000 cows. None of them belong to you. You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity. You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. Both are mad.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. Business seems pretty good. You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

[eddie]

48 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So unless we have a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, that will always be an issue right?

No, they've got it covered. Thoughts and prayers are all they need. And unicorns.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

OK, thank you for the correction. 

If my understanding is correct though, after 5 years? in Germany they will qualify for a German passport and then be able to travel freely throughout the EU.

Once again though happy to be corrected if I'm talking rubbish.

If they become German citizens, they can travel and work freely in the EU. I think it's 8 years and is accompanied by renunciation of previous citizenship and a whole lot of other conditions - knowledge of the language, lack of criminal record etc. It's not simply a question of turning up and blagging a German passport.

That still doesn't stop the UK from barring entry to individuals on a case-by-case basis.

[SSD]

6 hours ago, Archied said:

There is a move by labour to make a no deal exit unlawful?,

interesting question , if our politicians of any persuasion managed to force a position whereby leaving with no deal was totally no go wouldn’t that mean that the eu could stop uk leaving by refusing to make a deal no matter how many people vote to leave?

Yet Labour didn't specify this detail when the brexit vote was passed through Parliament in the first place? They need to take responsibility for this mess as well, they had the power to reject Cameron's brexit vote but they let it through with flying colours.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

So unless we have a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, that will always be an issue right?

This is the prime reason why I believe a hard border will be necessary and why a united Ireland will result.

Though judging by comments made by her indoors, it's probable that the Republic of Ireland doesn't want the North.

[1of4]

46 minutes ago, Bwash_Ram said:

SOCIALISM: You have 2 cows. The state takes one and gives it to your neighbor.

COMMUNISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both and shoots you.

EU BUREAUCRATISM: You have 2 cows. The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM: You have 2 cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

SURREALISM: You have 2 giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has died.

A GREEK CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You borrow lots of euros to build barns, milking sheds, hay stores, feed sheds, dairies, cold stores, abattoir, cheese unit and packing sheds. You still only have two cows.

A FRENCH CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce 20 times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called a Cowkimona and market it worldwide.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows, but you don't know where they are. You decide to have lunch.

A SWISS CORPORATION: You have 5,000 cows. None of them belong to you. You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity. You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. Both are mad.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION: You have 2 cows. Business seems pretty good. You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

You missed Modern Capitalism: You have have two cows. Your family business as done OK from the profits of the sale of their milk. You take out a bank loan to buy a bull, to improve the business and profits.

The government agree to a trade deal that allows a multinational dairy to come into the country and sell milk at cheaper price than you can produce it. It

Your business is no longer viable. The bank calls in your loan, which you can no longer maintain. The bank not only reprocessed the bull but also your two cows, your farm and it's land.

Finally when all the other businesses like yours, have shut down. The Multinational Dairy that supplies the milk will then increase their prices.

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

This is the prime reason why I believe a hard border will be necessary and why a united Ireland will result.

Though judging by comments made by her indoors, it's probable that the Republic of Ireland doesn't want the North.

I think the Republic does want re-unification, the majority do anyway.  However, whether it can manage it or afford it is a different matter altogether. And if a very large minority in the North were unwilling to reunify, then the whole process could turn into something horrible very rapidly. 

[uttoxram75]

5 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure where racism even came into the debate. 

Our doors are open to EU migrants - correct

Germany taking in the Syrians gave them direct access to UK - correct

Our borders are open to up to 420m (think that was the figure used) people completely unvetted - correct

Where does racism come into it?

I believe Farage twisted the message to demonise foreigners which then stokes racist feelings towards others. He knows exactly what he's doing imo. (as I believe you do!).

The point is though, politicians, press, pundits, whoever, was doing nothing to raise the issue of why so many refugees into Europe, what was causing the wars that was driving them from their homelands - no one wanted to have the debate on the root causes of mass migrations.

They still don't to be fair.

 

And there was more immigration from outside the EU than from inside - that is a fact.

[Archied]

7 hours ago, maxjam said:

I understand what you're saying but that leads you to the affluent, educated areas and the gated communities in the whitest parts of the UK having total authority over traditional working class areas such despite not having a clue as to their daily struggles.

If you're going down that road why let the over 65s vote cos they won't be around much longer and the under 25s haven't had enough experience in the real world.

In fact, why let anyone vote...

I was being sarcastic 

[Archied]

7 hours ago, StivePesley said:

That's how I read it. Pretty sure Archie was doing satire. And rightly so.

It is not democratic to take the vote away from people because they are stupid. It's the job of politicians to try and inform everyone as best they can.

Unfortunately in the referendum both sides failed. Remain should have done much better informing people, and Leave actively exploited ignorance

 

Pretty spot on Steve was tongue in cheek but also hopefully a reminder that although we may not all be at the same level of education and standing in life we all vote based on what we know and what influences/ effects our lives and that’s hopefully how we reach democratic positions that fit best for us all and get a better society ,

theres lots who vote but although better educated and better informed are ignorant of other people’s life  issues and situations and reasonings for voting the way they do,

 

[Archied]

7 hours ago, StivePesley said:

I guess that makes sense logically - and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it might be the best way out of this.

Give it up as a bad job - admit that we held a referendum with no clear view of how we could exit the EU, then triggered A50 even though we still had no idea. Revoke A50 and tell Nigel Farage and his Brexit supporters to stop talking in slogans and hyperbole, but to sit down and actually come up with a plan that can gain broad support. Then and only then do we restart the process

 

Sometimes it clears the head a bit to strip any situation you find yourself in back to the bare bones and look logically ,

you sound pretty much where I am on the subject ,, ie, tired of the whole thing and wish they would just make a decision and get on with it ( it’s like franks Chelsea saga) 

personaly I slightly favour staying in eu but by no means strong on that opinion and when I look at the problems created in trying to leave it does nudge me a bit towards the bloody minded thing of just leave with no deal because I think the eu are every bit as much to blame in all this stupidity as our politicians,

should never have had the bloody referendum in the first place 

[Archied]

4 minutes ago, Archied said:

Sometimes it clears the head a bit to strip any situation you find yourself in back to the bare bones and look logically ,

you sound pretty much where I am on the subject ,, ie, tired of the whole thing and wish they would just make a decision and get on with it ( it’s like franks Chelsea saga) 

personaly I slightly favour staying in eu but by no means strong on that opinion and when I look at the problems created in trying to leave it does nudge me a bit towards the bloody minded thing of just leave with no deal because I think the eu are every bit as much to blame in all this stupidity as our politicians,

should never have had the bloody referendum in the first place 

Meant to also say that I kind of feel after all the problems and debate I’m POSs of the opinion that we are at a point where we have no choice but to either stay in or leave with no deal as from what I can see ,half leaving and this/these deals put us in a limbo where we would be far far better off and have proper say by just staying , leaving with no deal will hurt short term no doubt but would it be better long term than a half in half out position we negotiate just now in a hurry through semi desperation 

 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Stripping it back to basics is the only logical way out off it...

The referendum was a binary choice and the govt promised to act on the result.

And they haven't which had caused this distress.

So set a date to negotiate a deal (which we have,again) then stick to it,come what may)

If we haven't negotiated a deal with the e.u by then,you can guarantee that one will be sorted extremely quickly afterwards.

And then we move on with everything else that's important to the country.

 

[eddie]

I think the Brexiteers have now got what they wanted - no deal, without a shadow of doubt. Just one problem - when it goes horribly wrong, who are you going to to blame?

 

[GboroRam]

30 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

If we haven't negotiated a deal with the e.u by then,you can guarantee that one will be sorted extremely quickly afterwards.

 

We've crashed one deadline and you are talking about crashing a second. 

Why will a third one mean it gets sorted quickly?