The Politics Thread 2019

[maxjam]

26 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

They have been removed, and the "still due to play" comment relates to a second band who don't have a naughty song but who did post some angry anti-tory stuff on Twitter in 2015 in relation to an article about the 2000+ people who died shortly after the DWP ruled them fit to work

Ah right,  I'm not really interested in the story tbh,  my musical interest ends at a good soundtrack to a movie!

 

28 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

It's funny though that none of the news articles I've seen make any reference to the full song title which is "Kill Tory Scum (Before They Kill You)"

That makes it more obvious as to the satirical point being made, but might have had to involve an admission that Tory policies do *actually* kill people.

That said - it's a pretty rubbish song and yes they have got a lot of publicity out of it. Probably more than they would have got if they'd actually played, as they were on the smallest stage and only have 150 twitter followers or something!

Yeah as I said a cursory google search just returned the 'shock' lines they want you to be offended by and tbh I couldn't be bothered to look into it any further!  I usually argue that 'context is everything' but from the examples I listed its hard to think of any context that would be appropriate (killing children of tories or assassinating Theresa May ?)

As you point out, they should get a nice boost to their 150 twitter followers though.

[Uptherams]

7 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

For - Like we currently have

They aren't currently closed...

For instance

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-us-trade-deal-nhs-drugs-orkambi-cystic-fibrosis-medicine-trump-a8816171.html

Here's an example of a drug we currently buy from the US - At an extortionate price

And if you don't trust the Independent because it's 'left-wing' - Here's the right wind Telegraph to confirm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/15/trump-threatens-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/

What is going on ? look at the flaws in your argument. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

59 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

It's a system designed to do exactly what it does - Provide the best possible healthcare for everyone regardless of their ability to pay

There would absolutely be people better off with a private healthcare system - However there would be a lot of people much much worse off

Independent world bodies, universities and medical institutions still consider the British and French healthcare systems to be the best in the world - There's a reason for that - Healthcare should, at it's core, help everyone - Not just the people who can afford it

That's my point . It Doesn't.  It does it's best with the funding available . I'm afraid I have seen this first hand .   A sick relative was begging for a scan for 6 months to be told by her GP that the NHS does not have infinite resources.  I paid for a scan for them .  The diagnosis was terminal and too late .   How many time's do you hear of people being given a death sentence in the UK  to receive treatment that has saved there life down the road in Germany.  My sister lived there  for six year's and they are light years ahead of us .  A fella in the telegraph did a charity run recently as the Cardiac ward he was on had one working blood pressure machine .

There should always be an NHS in the UK.   However there must be an acceptance that we are paying into a system that is becoming more antiquated as the years go on.    NHS hospital clinic rooms are already used for private work to provide additional funding .   Many people in Derby are having to travel to Birmingham or Leicester for ongoing cancer screening -  for a city of this size that is obscene.  

[cheron85]

9 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

What is going on ? look at the flaws in your argument. 

What flaws? Please help by pointing them out

You aren't currently making any points

Currently we have the ability to buy from anywhere we want - Including the US - And the drugs we HAVE to buy from the US are ridiculously expensive - We currently have some protection from the NICE deal (but not much)

Donald Trump and his advisors have come out to say that post-Brexit they will be doing a deal which benefits their companies - Which will mean we have to pay even more for the same drugs

Did you think Trump/The US are going to give us cheaper drugs?

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

That's my point . It Doesn't.  It does it's best with the funding available . I'm afraid I have seen this first hand .   A sick relative was begging for a scan for 6 months to be told by her GP that the NHS does not have infinite resources.  I paid for a scan for them .  The diagnosis was terminal and too late .   How many time's do you hear of people being given a death sentence in the UK  to receive treatment that has saved there life down the road in Germany.  My sister lived there  for six year's and they are light years ahead of us .  A fella in the telegraph did a charity run recently as the Cardiac ward he was on had one working blood pressure machine .

There should always be an NHS in the UK.   However there must be an acceptance that we are paying into a system that is becoming more antiquated as the years go on.    NHS hospital clinic rooms are already used for private work to provide additional funding .   Many people in Derby are having to travel to Birmingham or Leicester for ongoing cancer screening -  for a city of this size that is obscene.  

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation - And you're absolutely not the only person to suffer that

The flip side is that in the US many people avoid healthcare altogether because even going to see your GP can affect your insurance premiums, there are no guarantees of anything being covered by your insurance and millions of people don't have any insurance whatsoever - I know an american with a decent paid job but a family history of heart problems - Her insurance premiums are through the roof and because of that she avoided the doctors for years - And then had a heart attack in her twenties - She was lucky enough to survive but the hospital that saved her life then slapped her with a $200,000 dollar fee which the insurance company only paid for half of

The German system is interesting and potentially worth exploring - But don't mistake it for being a privatised healthcare system - They have compulsory health insurance, and industry which is tightly regulated and monitored by the government - It's essentially state-regulated insurance

The answer overall though is our healthcare system needs more/better funding - It's been one of the worst hit parts of our infrastructure as a country because of the 'austerity measures' put in by the government and we need to take it more seriously

[McRamFan]

4 hours ago, Uptherams said:

Right... but just like a few others, you are misinformed about what the result would be of a 'trade' deal. It has nothing to do with privatising the NHS. 

Yes it will.  The USA will demand open access to the NHS, the tories will give it to them, and if the companies bidding for parts of NHS, fail, they get to sue.

Not only will the NHS come under attack, they will go after the financial market, they hate London being a big player.  Next will be the insurance companies, you may pay £300 for your fully comp car insurance now, that will probably double, if you actually qualify for 'fully comp'.

We leave the EU to befome the 51st state of America, the irony.

[Norman]

2 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Yes it will.  The USA will demand open access to the NHS, the tories will give it to them, and if the companies bidding for parts of NHS, fail, they get to sue.

Not only will the NHS come under attack, they will go after the financial market, they hate London being a big player.  Next will be the insurance companies, you may pay £300 for your fully comp car insurance now, that will probably double, if you actually qualify for 'fully comp'.

We leave the EU to befome the 51st state of America, the irony.

The NHS is protected in law. It is quite different to what you are suggesting.

[Carl Sagan]

8 hours ago, cheron85 said:

It's a system designed to do exactly what it does - Provide the best possible healthcare for everyone regardless of their ability to pay

There would absolutely be people better off with a private healthcare system - However there would be a lot of people much much worse off

Independent world bodies, universities and medical institutions still consider the British and French healthcare systems to be the best in the world - There's a reason for that - Healthcare should, at it's core, help everyone - Not just the people who can afford it

I come on here and see there's a thread on the NHS with rubbish like this. There's only ever been one report that says the NHS is a world-leading system, the "Commonwealth Report" and it's what statisticians call a complete outlier. It had favourable ratings because it was based on public perceptions of it. Even in that report the NHS came next to last in actual healthcare outcomes, with more people dying under the NHS than in other developed nations.

One issue is that 1.5 million people in the UK work for the NHS!!!!! That's 2.3% of the entire population including children and the elderly. We simply do not have the structures and know-ho to run such a crazily oversized organization. It cannot and isn't run well. It's about the largest workforce in the world. Another issue is the bizarre religious-style attachment to it. Then there are the continual straw man arguments by its supporters who seem to think the only alternative to it is to go with an American-style system.

What should matter is having the best healthcare outcomes for UK citizens for the money spent. And that should be the only thing that matters. I've spoken privately with MPs across the political spectrum who all acknowledge that everywhere in the West has essentially free healthcare at the point of use and most have better outcomes than us, but it's politically untenable to ever criticize the NHS because of the crazed fanaticism of people incapable of opening their eyes.

Rant over.

[1of4]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

The NHS is protected in law. It is quite different to what you are suggesting.

I don't know which laws protect the NHS. But aren't the laws made by the government? So whats to stop them changing a law, if it enables them to do their great wonderful deal with the USA?

The Tories have been wanting to privatise the health service for years and a trade deal with the USA would give them the perfect opportunity to let it happen.

[Norman]

19 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

I don't know which laws protect the NHS. But aren't the laws made by the government? So whats to stop them changing a law, if it enables them to do their great wonderful deal with the USA?

The Tories have been wanting to privatise the health service for years and a trade deal with the USA would give them the perfect opportunity to let it happen.

Do you really think there will ever be a majority in parliament to change the law on the NHS? There would be public outcry at the first suggestion of doing that. Political suicide.

Got more chance of Corbyn talking to Trump.

[ariotofmyown]

48 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

I come on here and see there's a thread on the NHS with rubbish like this. There's only ever been one report that says the NHS is a world-leading system, the "Commonwealth Report" and it's what statisticians call a complete outlier. It had favourable ratings because it was based on public perceptions of it. Even in that report the NHS came next to last in actual healthcare outcomes, with more people dying under the NHS than in other developed nations.

One issue is that 1.5 million people in the UK work for the NHS!!!!! That's 2.3% of the entire population including children and the elderly. We simply do not have the structures and know-ho to run such a crazily oversized organization. It cannot and isn't run well. It's about the largest workforce in the world. Another issue is the bizarre religious-style attachment to it. Then there are the continual straw man arguments by its supporters who seem to think the only alternative to it is to go with an American-style system.

What should matter is having the best healthcare outcomes for UK citizens for the money spent. And that should be the only thing that matters. I've spoken privately with MPs across the political spectrum who all acknowledge that everywhere in the West has essentially free healthcare at the point of use and most have better outcomes than us, but it's politically untenable to ever criticize the NHS because of the crazed fanaticism of people incapable of opening their eyes.

Rant over.

Well I've just watched a brilliant video staring Boris Johnson who says it's fantastic and he should know.

It's amazing, he's filmed bumping into all these people who agree with everything he is saying. He even has friends with turbans and others with black faces too, although he doesn't repeat his "watermelon smiles" quip.

Everything he wants to do is great and he really seems to care about people who may not have had the chance to attend Eton. He probably even cares about Farage too, as he could only afford Dulwich Collage.

The production quality is outstanding too and it looks almost nothing like a video made in the 90s by some of his Uni chums in the film society.

Take a look, it's a vision of Utopia.

[cheron85]

9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

I come on here and see there's a thread on the NHS with rubbish like this. There's only ever been one report that says the NHS is a world-leading system, the "Commonwealth Report" and it's what statisticians call a complete outlier. It had favourable ratings because it was based on public perceptions of it. Even in that report the NHS came next to last in actual healthcare outcomes, with more people dying under the NHS than in other developed nations.

Rant away Carl ? - It's always appreciated

It's fair to say I may have been getting a little vitriolic at that point when confronted by a forum member who refused to give any actual opinion/information - Merely scoffing at what others were writing

I accept the NHS has it's failings and that there are other systems which could be explored - But I don't believe allowing the free-market to take over would be anywhere near a good idea and would strongly defend state regulation of healthcare provision - And I strongly believe the problem is lack of funding rather than anything else

WHO ranks us fairly low in this report - However, interestingly Ireland and Germany often get called out as great systems but are ranked lower than us - Overall it really depends what metrics you use to measure 'best'

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

The NY Times gives us a positive write up

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html

As you say the Commonwealth Fund ranked us highly (in 2011) 

And I always like to check stuff (admittedly didn't prior to now) with full fact .org because I think they're aces

https://fullfact.org/health/has-nhs-been-judged-best-healthcare-system-world/

I think it's my mindset that jumps to 'equity' and 'access' being incredibly important facets for a healthcare system - What's best for the population as a whole not what's best for the individual

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, maxjam said:

Ah right,  I'm not really interested in the story tbh,  my musical interest ends at a good soundtrack to a movie!

Fair enough - what it is right, is that historically, young people have frequently used music as a tool for protest. An engaging medium by which to get across a message of dissatisfaction. It's not just something that happens in the background of a film to create a mood ?
Old people are traditionally supposed to be outraged by the angry message of protest music. Job done

Glastonbury Festival has always been political (starting out as a fundraiser for CND). The organiser Michael Eavis is a supporter of nuclear disarmament, anti-austerity and extremely green in outlook. For a newspaper to suggest that the crowd chanting Jeremy Corbyn's name when he appeared on stage was an example of the festival taking "a dark turn" is outrageously poor reporting

I thought you might be interested in the story because it highlights a lot of the issues dear to your heart - political messages being twisted by the media to suit an agenda, freedom of speech, hypocrisy etc Quite surprised you weren't interested tbh

[McRamFan]

13 hours ago, Norman said:

The NHS is protected in law. It is quite different to what you are suggesting.

Please feel free to quote the legislation.  Try and counter this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nhs-us-trade-deal-talks-privatisation-healthcare-trump-a8198871.html

The The Health and Social Care Act 2012 actually opened up the NHS further to private companies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_Social_Care_Act_2012

It abolished NHS primary care trusts (PCTs) and Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) and transferred between £60 billion and £80 billion of "commissioning", or health care funds, from the abolished PCTs to several hundred "clinical commissioning groups", partly run by the general practitioners (GPs) in England but a major point of access for private service providers.

Just to clarify, most GP's may have a NHS badge on the door, however, most are private concerns.

So are you misinformed, or just peddling brexit nonsense?

[Norman]

Just now, McRamFan said:

 

So are you misinformed, or just peddling brexit nonsense?

We are copying the EU-Canada economic free trade agreement which we are already part of. Part of which;

'the cross-border trade and services chapter—article 9.2 makes it very clear that the Government retain the right to regulate in public services. Any changes in the NHS should be a matter for domestic policy debate in the United Kingdom, and not anywhere else.'

'In CETA, for example, they are contained in chapters 9 and 28, as well as annex 2 and the additional national reservation in annex 2. It is up to this House how we carry out public policy.'

You are getting free trade agreements completely wrong.

If you want to argue which government opened up which parts of the NHS to more privitisation,, go ahead.

But it doesn't change the fact that in a FTA the NHS is protected by law.

[Norman]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

Fair enough - what it is right, is that historically, young people have frequently used music as a tool for protest. An engaging medium by which to get across a message of dissatisfaction. It's not just something that happens in the background of a film to create a mood ?
Old people are traditionally supposed to be outraged by the angry message of protest music. Job done

Glastonbury Festival has always been political (starting out as a fundraiser for CND). The organiser Michael Eavis is a supporter of nuclear disarmament, anti-austerity and extremely green in outlook. For a newspaper to suggest that the crowd chanting Jeremy Corbyn's name when he appeared on stage was an example of the festival taking "a dark turn" is outrageously poor reporting

I thought you might be interested in the story because it highlights a lot of the issues dear to your heart - political messages being twisted by the media to suit an agenda, freedom of speech, hypocrisy etc Quite surprised you weren't interested tbh

Left wing group stops left wing band playing in left wing field populated by mostly left wingers.

 

[Wolfie]

18 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Please feel free to quote the legislation.  Try and counter this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nhs-us-trade-deal-talks-privatisation-healthcare-trump-a8198871.html

 

How can Theresa May make any guarantees on trade talks which havent even begun yet and she's stepping down on Friday?.

18 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_Social_Care_Act_2012

It abolished NHS primary care trusts (PCTs) and Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) and transferred between £60 billion and £80 billion of "commissioning", or health care funds, from the abolished PCTs to several hundred "clinical commissioning groups", partly run by the general practitioners (GPs) in England but a major point of access for private service providers.

Just to clarify, most GP's may have a NHS badge on the door, however, most are private concerns.

So are you misinformed, or just peddling brexit nonsense?

....and yet, only around £3bn of the NHS budget (£125bn approx) is currently outsourced to private companies. That's around 2.5%.

Doesn't look very privatisationey to me.

[McRamFan]

1 minute ago, Norman said:

We are copying the EU-Canada economic free trade agreement which we are already part of. Part of which;

'the cross-border trade and services chapter—article 9.2 makes it very clear that the Government retain the right to regulate in public services. Any changes in the NHS should be a matter for domestic policy debate in the United Kingdom, and not anywhere else.'

'In CETA, for example, they are contained in chapters 9 and 28, as well as annex 2 and the additional national reservation in annex 2. It is up to this House how we carry out public policy.'

You are getting free trade agreements completely wrong.

If you want to argue which government opened up which parts of the NHS to more privitisation,, go ahead.

But it doesn't change the fact that in a FTA the NHS is protected by law.

 It may be protected in that agreement, probably because Canada has 24 drug companies, whilst USA has 452, it controls 45% of the global market, no way will the USA deal with the health sector being protected.  We are not copying anything, btw, we can't even leave because everyone knows we will be worse off, permanently.

[Norman]

1 minute ago, McRamFan said:

 It may be protected in that agreement, probably because Canada has 24 drug companies, whilst USA has 452, it controls 45% of the global market, no way will the USA deal with the health sector being protected.  We are not copying anything, btw, we can't even leave because everyone knows we will be worse off, permanently.

If the USA will not deal with the health sector being protected by law, then they won't do a deal.

No way would a majority in parliament, or the public allow that law to be changed.

[Norman]

9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

How can Theresa May make any guarantees on trade talks which havent even begun yet and she's stepping down on Friday?.

....and yet, only around £3bn of the NHS budget (£125bn approx) is currently outsourced to private companies. That's around 2.5%.

Doesn't look very privatisationey to me.

0.5 percent of which was done under the last Labour government 

[McRamFan]

9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

How can Theresa May make any guarantees on trade talks which havent even begun yet and she's stepping down on Friday?.

....and yet, only around £3bn of the NHS budget (£125bn approx) is currently outsourced to private companies. That's around 2.5%.

Doesn't look very privatisationey to me.

Its an indication on what the tories would be prepared to do, if we left.  I am saying that if we dealt with the USA, the NHS would be opened up, as well as chlorinated chicken and super obesity.

Where are your figures from?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-questions-nhs-privatised

Says differently.