The Politics Thread 2019

[cheron85]

16 hours ago, eddie said:

If it's not nailed down, then post-Brexit, it's up for sale to America.

If it is nailed down, we'll sell the nails as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-nhs-trade-deal-woody-johnson-matt-hancock-a8940861.html

Is this what you voted for?

It's nice to know that they've finally worked out where to get the £350m per week for the NHS from though - That's the amount extra we're going to need to pay for over-priced American drugs

15 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Forgot to mention that Woody Johnson amusingly is named after two nicknames for male genitalia. 

There's a lad who works in one of our offices called Willy Wang

14 hours ago, Uptherams said:

This whole NHS US trade deal thing is a farce. It's simply US corporations tendering for an NHS contract. It's ultimately a good thing. 

How? See below for more detail

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I don't think it's a case of privatization (yet). It's more a case of us buying and using their drugs/medicine rather than EU alternatives.

We currently have the option to buy drugs from anywhere - The EU doesn't restrict us to buying only EU drugs - If we signed an exclusive agreement with the US we'd end up paying more for the stuff we already have access to

Generally speaking the same drugs from the EU are cheaper btw - Because the majority of EU health services aren't run for profit - In the US it is which is why the drug prices are so much higher - Why do you think so many of them try to get across the border to Canada and Mexico to buy fairly commonplace drugs?

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Why do you think so many of them try to get across the border to Canada and Mexico to buy fairly commonplace drugs?

Yep - go on holiday in Cancun and you'll see Mexican "pharmacies" with drugs in generic packaging stacked from floor to ceiling and a queue of Americans out the door.

Plus also running the health service on an individual "insurance" basis is a minefield of what is eligible and what isn't.  Get the wrong illness at the wrong time and your entire life can be bankrupted in the space of a few hours

[cheron85]

27 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Yep - go on holiday in Cancun and you'll see Mexican "pharmacies" with drugs in generic packaging stacked from floor to ceiling and a queue of Americans out the door.

Plus also running the health service on an individual "insurance" basis is a minefield of what is eligible and what isn't.  Get the wrong illness at the wrong time and your entire life can be bankrupted in the space of a few hours

The thing I don't get is - We already have private healthcare in this country - You can already easily access it - So what's the benefit to people of privatising more of it?

If you want free healthcare it's there

If you want to pay for extras that's also available

Seems like the current system is best of both worlds right?

[maxjam]

Meet your potential new (President Trump backed) Prime Minister!

 

 

[Uptherams]

4 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

You'll have to explain that.

Lets start with the debate about a fully tax payer funded NHS v the American private system. Why do think the latter is better for us?

That's not the subject. It's parts of the NHS that are already outsourced. American corporations competing more fairly for contracts. That's a good thing.  

[Uptherams]

3 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Only if you can afford it.  At the moment the NHS treats everyone fairly.  Replacing that with an insurance based would negatively impact the working class and the poor.  So if you have an income of £70,000k (household), you will probably be able to afford to cover 'average' medical requirements, such as coughs, cold, sprains, cuts and bruises, minor ops and small broken bones.

 

Right... but just like a few others, you are misinformed about what the result would be of a 'trade' deal. It has nothing to do with privatising the NHS. 

[Uptherams]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

It's nice to know that they've finally worked out where to get the £350m per week for the NHS from though - That's the amount extra we're going to need to pay for over-priced American drugs

 

What a laugh. So what you are saying is that because the NHS is a public sector body, they are run by numpties that would choose overpriced sugar pills over what we have now??

[Uptherams]

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

The thing I don't get is - We already have private healthcare in this country - You can already easily access it - So what's the benefit to people of privatising more of it?

If you want free healthcare it's there

If you want to pay for extras that's also available

Seems like the current system is best of both worlds right?

You have indirectly hit the nail on the head. They want more access to our market. That includes private healthcare. 

[Stive Pesley]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48497633

Hmm - the right wing media outrage has led to this band being banned from Glastonbury for having a satirical song called "Kill Tory Scum (Before They Kill You)

Right or wrong?

 

[cheron85]

34 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

What a laugh. So what you are saying is that because the NHS is a public sector body, they are run by numpties that would choose overpriced sugar pills over what we have now??

I absolutely am not - I'm saying the NHS is a very well run and thoroughly brilliant institution that should be left the hell alone

However - Currently we have the option of buying out drugs from anywhere in the world (ie, we can buy the cheapest) including the US

If we signed a trade deal with the US we would HAVE to buy them from the US

Basic economics (supply and demand) means that if we have an open market (now) prices will be lower for the drugs than if we had a closed market (deal with the US) as US companies would know we had no option other than to buy from them

32 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

You have indirectly hit the nail on the head. They want more access to our market. That includes private healthcare. 

They have access to our market already - They have the option of setting up as much private healthcare as they want

What they want is for us to close down elements of the NHS - And let private companies take them over - So that the ONLY option for certain things is US provided private healthcare - They want to create a monopoly on a service so that they can charge more money for it

The reason private healthcare in the UK complains about the NHS is that most people go "I'll use the NHS for free thanks" so they can't charge as much - In the US private companies charge a small fortune because people have no other option

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, cheron85 said:

The thing I don't get is - We already have private healthcare in this country - You can already easily access it - So what's the benefit to people of privatising more of it?

If you want free healthcare it's there

If you want to pay for extras that's also available

Seems like the current system is best of both worlds right?

Healthcare through the NHS isn't free .  It's available without additional payment at the point of source .

It's rarely a case of paying for extras -  it's normally a case of paying for what you desperately need or spend longer in pain .

If your paying into the NHS through wages it severely impacts on your ability to pay private as a one of course of action. A consultation fee is About £160-180

The NHS is great for some thing's - but with advances in medicine and the cost associated it doesn't cope. The current system is jack of all trades , master of none .  

 

 

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

The NHS is great for some thing's - but with advances in medicine and the cost associated it doesn't cope. The current system is jack of all trades , master of none .  

The current system performs miracles considering the way it's had funding attacked for as long as I can remember.

[cheron85]

1 minute ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

The NHS is great for some thing's - but with advances in medicine and the cost associated it doesn't cope. The current system is jack of all trades , master of none .  

It's a system designed to do exactly what it does - Provide the best possible healthcare for everyone regardless of their ability to pay

There would absolutely be people better off with a private healthcare system - However there would be a lot of people much much worse off

Independent world bodies, universities and medical institutions still consider the British and French healthcare systems to be the best in the world - There's a reason for that - Healthcare should, at it's core, help everyone - Not just the people who can afford it

[maxjam]

42 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48497633

Hmm - the right wing media outrage has led to this band being banned from Glastonbury for having a satirical song called "Kill Tory Scum (Before They Kill You)

Right or wrong?

 

I'm not even sure I understand the article.  First paragraph says 'British punk band Killdren have accused Glastonbury of "buckling under pressure from the right-wing media" their set at the festival was cancelled'  but the final paragraph says  'The band are still due to play at Glastonbury on 30 June on the Park Stage.'  Either they have been banned or they haven't?

Secondly a quick google search for 'Killdren Glastonbury' shows articles from The Times, The Independent, BBC, Sky, Metro, Daily Mail - pretty much everyone is reporting it, right and left.

Thirdly there's context.  Dunno anything about the band or Glastonbury for that matter ? but from the BBC article alone;

Their lyrics include: "Even if it's your dad or your mum, kill Tory scum, kill Tory scum...murder them all to the beat of a drum, kill Tory scum, kill Tory scum."

The band also played a graphic set at Boomtown Fair 2018, in which they kicked, punched, and spat at a man dressed in a suit, while wearing Kill Tory Scum clothing.

And from The Times article;

Two years after the crowds at Glastonbury burst into joyous chants of “Oh, Jeremy Corbyn!” the music festival has taken a darkly menacing turn — booking bands that have called for the children of Conservatives to be killed and that have staged the assassination of Theresa May.

Probably not the best message to send out and you're pushing the limits of satire to the absolute limits of (if not beyond) legality.

[cheron85]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

Right... but just like a few others, you are misinformed about what the result would be of a 'trade' deal. It has nothing to do with privatising the NHS. 

Coming back cos I missed this

Please do tell what a 'trade' deal is...

I studied politics for 4 years (including international relations) and worked in/around it for a couple - So I have a pretty decent grasp of what they involve

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm not even sure I understand the article.  First paragraph says 'British punk band Killdren have accused Glastonbury of "buckling under pressure from the right-wing media" their set at the festival was cancelled'  but the final paragraph says  'The band are still due to play at Glastonbury on 30 June on the Park Stage.'  Either they have been banned or they haven't?

Secondly a quick google search for 'Killdren Glastonbury' shows articles from The Times, The Independent, BBC, Sky, Metro, Daily Mail - pretty much everyone is reporting it, right and left.

Thirdly there's context.  Dunno anything about the band or Glastonbury for that matter ? but from the BBC article alone;

Their lyrics include: "Even if it's your dad or your mum, kill Tory scum, kill Tory scum...murder them all to the beat of a drum, kill Tory scum, kill Tory scum."

The band also played a graphic set at Boomtown Fair 2018, in which they kicked, punched, and spat at a man dressed in a suit, while wearing Kill Tory Scum clothing.

And from The Times article;

Two years after the crowds at Glastonbury burst into joyous chants of “Oh, Jeremy Corbyn!” the music festival has taken a darkly menacing turn — booking bands that have called for the children of Conservatives to be killed and that have staged the assassination of Theresa May.

Probably not the best message to send out and you're pushing the limits of satire to the absolute limits of (if not beyond) legality.

However they've managed to get a lot of publicity from it.

Why does the cynic in me think it's more about publicity than about satire?

[Uptherams]

48 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I absolutely am not - I'm saying the NHS is a very well run and thoroughly brilliant institution that should be left the hell alone

However - Currently we have the option of buying out drugs from anywhere in the world (ie, we can buy the cheapest) including the US

If we signed a trade deal with the US we would HAVE to buy them from the US

Basic economics (supply and demand) means that if we have an open market (now) prices will be lower for the drugs than if we had a closed market (deal with the US) as US companies would know we had no option other than to buy from them

They have access to our market already - They have the option of setting up as much private healthcare as they want

What they want is for us to close down elements of the NHS - And let private companies take them over - So that the ONLY option for certain things is US provided private healthcare - They want to create a monopoly on a service so that they can charge more money for it

The reason private healthcare in the UK complains about the NHS is that most people go "I'll use the NHS for free thanks" so they can't charge as much - In the US private companies charge a small fortune because people have no other option

So many contradictions....so are you for an against open markets? 

[Uptherams]

24 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Coming back cos I missed this

Please do tell what a 'trade' deal is...

I studied politics for 4 years (including international relations) and worked in/around it for a couple - So I have a pretty decent grasp of what they involve

You are Implying that if we open up our market to international corporations that the NHS will go fully private... ?

[Stive Pesley]

17 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm not even sure I understand the article.  First paragraph says 'British punk band Killdren have accused Glastonbury of "buckling under pressure from the right-wing media" their set at the festival was cancelled'  but the final paragraph says  'The band are still due to play at Glastonbury on 30 June on the Park Stage.'  Either they have been banned or they haven't?

They have been removed, and the "still due to play" comment relates to a second band who don't have a naughty song but who did post some angry anti-tory stuff on Twitter in 2015 in relation to an article about the 2000+ people who died shortly after the DWP ruled them fit to work

22 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Probably not the best message to send out and you're pushing the limits of satire to the absolute limits of (if not beyond) legality

It's funny though that none of the news articles I've seen make any reference to the full song title which is "Kill Tory Scum (Before They Kill You)"

That makes it more obvious as to the satirical point being made, but might have had to involve an admission that Tory policies do *actually* kill people.

That said - it's a pretty rubbish song and yes they have got a lot of publicity out of it. Probably more than they would have got if they'd actually played, as they were on the smallest stage and only have 150 twitter followers or something!

[cheron85]

33 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

So many contradictions....so are you for an against open markets? 

For - Like we currently have

31 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

You are Implying that if we open up our market to international corporations that the NHS will go fully private... ?

They aren't currently closed...

For instance

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-us-trade-deal-nhs-drugs-orkambi-cystic-fibrosis-medicine-trump-a8816171.html

Here's an example of a drug we currently buy from the US - At an extortionate price

And if you don't trust the Independent because it's 'left-wing' - Here's the right wind Telegraph to confirm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/15/trump-threatens-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/