The Politics Thread 2019

[ramesses]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

 

NHS - It won't be part of any trade deal. The law would have to be changed or large parts privately sold off. Political suicide. Project Fear. 

 

I don’t trust a word the Conservative party says about the NHS. In the days before Brexit dominated everything, the Conservative party repeated during a general election that ‘there will be no more top-down re organisation of the NHS’. I think that promise was believed by most people. Guess what was announced in the first few days after Cameron won that election?

If after all that Cameron/Lansley NHS upheaval and mess (all in the interests of useless ‘competition’ in an ‘internal market’ that has produced nothing but waste) and if after almost a decade of destructive and ongoing NHS ‘efficiency savings’ (aka cuts) people still trust the Conservatives with the NHS then I hope that trust is based on more than just the naïve belief that what Conservatives say before an election about the NHS is somehow related to what they go and do immediately after they win an election.

As for your comment about ‘project fear’.  At the same time that Lansley was secretly planning his ‘top down reorganisation of the NHS’, there were very real public fears about the funding of Sure Start under a Conservative government. But that was dismissed by Cameron as Labour just trying to frighten people…basically the Tories saying it was ‘project fear’. Guess what happened to the funding to Sure Start under Cameron/Osborne?

That very nasty party under Cameron/Osborne has now (unbelievably) become an even nastier right wing English national party under Johnson and somehow you expect them to be better and more trustworthy than Cameron/Osborne when it comes to the NHS. That’s ‘project stupidity’.

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, ramesses said:

I don’t trust a word the Conservative party says about the NHS. In the days before Brexit dominated everything, the Conservative party repeated during a general election that ‘there will be no more top-down re organisation of the NHS’. I think that promise was believed by most people. Guess what was announced in the first few days after Cameron won that election?

If after all that Cameron/Lansley NHS upheaval and mess (all in the interests of useless ‘competition’ in an ‘internal market’ that has produced nothing but waste) and if after almost a decade of destructive and ongoing NHS ‘efficiency savings’ (aka cuts) people still trust the Conservatives with the NHS then I hope that trust is based on more than just the naïve belief that what Conservatives say before an election about the NHS is somehow related to what they go and do immediately after they win an election.

As for your comment about ‘project fear’.  At the same time that Lansley was secretly planning his ‘top down reorganisation of the NHS’, there were very real public fears about the funding of Sure Start under a Conservative government. But that was dismissed by Cameron as Labour just trying to frighten people…basically the Tories saying it was ‘project fear’. Guess what happened to the funding to Sure Start under Cameron/Osborne?

That very nasty party under Cameron/Osborne has now (unbelievably) become an even nastier right wing English national party under Johnson and somehow you expect them to be better and more trustworthy than Cameron/Osborne when it comes to the NHS. That’s ‘project stupidity’.

Post of the season

[ariotofmyown]

37 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Does it concern you that plenty of the more moderate left wing Labour ministers have left the party recently? These people aren't some right wing radicals. They have voted with the government on all sorts of left wing policies but the current situation is even too much for them.

Flippant comment I'll admit but its fairly obvious to see that both main parties are moving to the extremes.  Depending upon how rose tinted your glasses are however you might only see this happening to one or the other.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50330007

 

I was pretty disappointed Tom Watson has left, but on the whole, I'm struggling to remember too many Labour ideas that are actually extreme. The anti- semitism problems could have been handled much better, but I have little doubt that Corbyn is not anti-semantic. He would never make the same insensitive/racist comments like Johnson has.

The ex-Tory contesting Bercow's seat for the Lib Dems says his old party are now right-wing English nationalists. Loads more mainstream Tory MPs have all left. I hope that the Tories continue with the same whatabouterry as you so their Grand Old Party becomes an irrelevance asap.

[Van der MoodHoover]

7 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I was pretty disappointed Tom Watson has left, but on the whole, I'm struggling to remember too many Labour ideas that are actually extreme. The anti- semitism problems could have been handled much better, but I have little doubt that Corbyn is not anti-semantic. He would never make the same insensitive/racist comments like Johnson has.

The ex-Tory contesting Bercow's seat for the Lib Dems says his old party are now right-wing English nationalists. Loads more mainstream Tory MPs have all left. I hope that the Tories continue with the same whatabouterry as you so their Grand Old Party becomes an irrelevance asap.

Chuka Umunna

Luciana Berger

That bloke (Watson's mate?) who said people should vote conservative. 

Frank field

There have been a few. For various reasons probably.

I think one of the things that the labour party struggles with is explaining it's own machinery. And why that is a more democratic representative approach. It's too easy to criticize it for looking like some sort of secretive police state. And it's only then a small step to the "soviet" label.

It's actually very complicated trying to have a representative broad church. Labour try to have due process for everything. The conservatives pretend they're all about freedom of expression etc but I suspect that they simply keep kids on things through backhanded, patronage and shady deals.

[maxjam]

29 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I was pretty disappointed Tom Watson has left, but on the whole, I'm struggling to remember too many Labour ideas that are actually extreme. The anti- semitism problems could have been handled much better, but I have little doubt that Corbyn is not anti-semantic. He would never make the same insensitive/racist comments like Johnson has.

The ex-Tory contesting Bercow's seat for the Lib Dems says his old party are now right-wing English nationalists. Loads more mainstream Tory MPs have all left. I hope that the Tories continue with the same whatabouterry as you so their Grand Old Party becomes an irrelevance asap.

Not trying to be argumentative but you are definitely viewing the world though strong labour glasses. 

I've got no desire to debate politics for the rest of my Sunday so will leave it there - when Labour get around to releasing their election manifesto I'll pick it apart then. 

[sonofmidnight]

I've been able to vote for nearly 50 years and of one thing I am certain.  All parties  twist and distort the facts. What they promise and then go on to deliver , particularly when in opposition,  are different from reality. As someone has already posted there are good , honest, altruistic MPs in all parties and there are poor, greedy, in it for the wrong reason, MPs in all parties.  In reality I would like an MP who lives in Derbyshire and understands what we need and can represent us accordingly.  However I see that at least one of the candidates for my ward has been parachuted in from London and as yet I know absolutely nothing about her and I can't find much about her on line either.

[Rev]

41 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Chuka Umunna

Luciana Berger

That bloke (Watson's mate?) who said people should vote conservative. 

Frank field

There have been a few. For various reasons probably.

I think one of the things that the labour party struggles with is explaining it's own machinery. And why that is a more democratic representative approach. It's too easy to criticize it for looking like some sort of secretive police state. And it's only then a small step to the "soviet" label.

It's actually very complicated trying to have a representative broad church. Labour try to have due process for everything. The conservatives pretend they're all about freedom of expression etc but I suspect that they simply keep kids on things through backhanded, patronage and shady deals.

It's more democratic, right up until the leadership decide to impose candidates upon the local party with the flimsiest of arguments. 

That's how I ended up being represented, and I use the term loosely, by Chris Leslie this past decade.

That worked out well.

[Angry Ram]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

If ever there was a peenarus, it’s him..

[GboroRam]

40 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

If ever there was a peenarus, it’s him..

I was actually waiting for someone to comment attacking the person and avoiding the point made. 

[Sith Happens]

3 hours ago, ramesses said:

I don’t trust a word the Conservative party says about the NHS. 

Try telling that to those people alive today, or leading improved lives because of the cancer drugs fund which was promised and introduced.

[Andicis]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Do you actually believe it's a good idea to have state run broadband? Say they can fund it, who do we complain to when our service is rubbish? It's not like we can just switch supplier, it could be absolute rubbish and we would have very little power to do anything about it. And where does that come in with censorship? What if we ended up with a Chinese style censorship of the internet?

[G STAR RAM]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Probably the most obnoxious person in the media today. Everything he says is right, and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong. The most stereotypical Remainer going.

And the point he is trying to make, does it even make any sense?

Not really sure how comparing leaving the EU to promising free broadband even makes sense?

From what I have seen, free broadband for all could cost up to £100bn, how does this compare to costs of leaving the EU? Assume he must have the figures available to be making such statements.

[G STAR RAM]

5 hours ago, ramesses said:

I don’t trust a word the Conservative party says about the NHS. In the days before Brexit dominated everything, the Conservative party repeated during a general election that ‘there will be no more top-down re organisation of the NHS’. I think that promise was believed by most people. Guess what was announced in the first few days after Cameron won that election?

If after all that Cameron/Lansley NHS upheaval and mess (all in the interests of useless ‘competition’ in an ‘internal market’ that has produced nothing but waste) and if after almost a decade of destructive and ongoing NHS ‘efficiency savings’ (aka cuts) people still trust the Conservatives with the NHS then I hope that trust is based on more than just the naïve belief that what Conservatives say before an election about the NHS is somehow related to what they go and do immediately after they win an election.

As for your comment about ‘project fear’.  At the same time that Lansley was secretly planning his ‘top down reorganisation of the NHS’, there were very real public fears about the funding of Sure Start under a Conservative government. But that was dismissed by Cameron as Labour just trying to frighten people…basically the Tories saying it was ‘project fear’. Guess what happened to the funding to Sure Start under Cameron/Osborne?

That very nasty party under Cameron/Osborne has now (unbelievably) become an even nastier right wing English national party under Johnson and somehow you expect them to be better and more trustworthy than Cameron/Osborne when it comes to the NHS. That’s ‘project stupidity’.

Just for a bit of balance to your post,do you think Labour always stick to their manifesto? And do you think all of their current promises are deliverable?

[Norman]

5 hours ago, ramesses said:

I don’t trust a word the Conservative party says about the NHS. In the days before Brexit dominated everything, the Conservative party repeated during a general election that ‘there will be no more top-down re organisation of the NHS’. I think that promise was believed by most people. Guess what was announced in the first few days after Cameron won that election?

If after all that Cameron/Lansley NHS upheaval and mess (all in the interests of useless ‘competition’ in an ‘internal market’ that has produced nothing but waste) and if after almost a decade of destructive and ongoing NHS ‘efficiency savings’ (aka cuts) people still trust the Conservatives with the NHS then I hope that trust is based on more than just the naïve belief that what Conservatives say before an election about the NHS is somehow related to what they go and do immediately after they win an election.

As for your comment about ‘project fear’.  At the same time that Lansley was secretly planning his ‘top down reorganisation of the NHS’, there were very real public fears about the funding of Sure Start under a Conservative government. But that was dismissed by Cameron as Labour just trying to frighten people…basically the Tories saying it was ‘project fear’. Guess what happened to the funding to Sure Start under Cameron/Osborne?

That very nasty party under Cameron/Osborne has now (unbelievably) become an even nastier right wing English national party under Johnson and somehow you expect them to be better and more trustworthy than Cameron/Osborne when it comes to the NHS. That’s ‘project stupidity’.

If you think over the next 4 years, letting in another 1.2 million is a good idea for the NHS then that is project stupidity. 

I don't care about past governments. It's gone. I vote on the her and now. 

If you think the NHS will be privatised it will be because we have run out of funding. 

And that funding will run out because the infrastructure needed for such vast numbers costs too much and takes too long to implement. 

The fastest way to privatise the NHS is Corbyn. He would wreck it. 

I didn't vote for Cameron. If you think the Labour Party don't make changes to what they have stated, then you must have had your head in the sand for the last 3 and a half years. 

 

Let us not forget which party has privatised the most of the NHS as well.. 

[Norman]

6 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Well yeah, we need the money for the NHS which needs record investment. Plus many other priorities. 

Where is free broadband that's not actually free on your priority list for this country? 

[Norman]

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Unfortunately for you, many people who have similar political views to you are actually racist, with possible fascist sympathies too.

 

Unfortunately for you, most people who have similar political views to you are gender fluid attack helicopters who belive men can have periods. They shut down debate and don't want to hear opposing views. They like to use violence, accuse normal people of being transphobic Nazis who don't respect that they want to be a Badger for the day.  Basically, full blown fascists.

And anti-semetic. 

And jobless. 

See, so easy to stereotype. When in reality it's a very small part of a vote. 

 

[Angry Ram]

57 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Probably the most obnoxious person in the media today. Everything he says is right, and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong. The most stereotypical Remainer going.

And the point he is trying to make, does it even make any sense?

Not really sure how comparing leaving the EU to promising free broadband even makes sense?

From what I have seen, free broadband for all could cost up to £100bn, how does this compare to costs of leaving the EU? Assume he must have the figures available to be making such statements.

Makes sense in the twits head.. 

[Angry Ram]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Post of the season

Was a short season.. 

[GboroRam]

58 minutes ago, Norman said:

Unfortunately for you, most people who have similar political views to you are gender fluid attack helicopters who belive men can have periods. They shut down debate and don't want to hear opposing views. They like to use violence, accuse normal people of being transphobic Nazis who don't respect that they want to be a Badger for the day.  Basically, full blown fascists.

And anti-semetic. 

And jobless. 

See, so easy to stereotype. When in reality it's a very small part of a vote. 

 

Do you genuinely believe that? I think a very small minority do. 

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Do you genuinely believe that? I think a very small minority do. 

Do you genuinely believe the other post. I think a very small minority do. 

Which was my point.