The Politics Thread 2019

[R@M]

28 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

No the knife wielding scroats are not normal. But they aren't our new PM. What a weird comparison.

This behaviour is not normal. It's disgusting...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/07/oxford-bullingdon-club-boris-johnson-sexism-violence-bullying-culture

Firstly, alleged behaviour, secondly, it was about 40 years ago. Regret has been expressed regarding behaviours of the time, should the whistle blower who was clearly just as involved be sacked too? Every single person has some sort of skeleton or regret waiting to be released should they try to get elected. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 minute ago, R@M said:

Firstly, alleged behaviour, secondly, it was about 40 years ago. Regret has been expressed regarding behaviours of the time, should the whistle blower who was clearly just as involved be sacked too? Every single person has some sort of skeleton or regret waiting to be released should they try to get elected. 

Hmm.

Takes a special sort of someone to build a whole career and climb to power on deceit and mendacity though

Proven as well rather than alleged.

Should we expect more regret to be expressed?

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, R@M said:

Firstly, alleged behaviour, secondly, it was about 40 years ago. Regret has been expressed regarding behaviours of the time, should the whistle blower who was clearly just as involved be sacked too? Every single person has some sort of skeleton or regret waiting to be released should they try to get elected. 

If this had been all he'd ever done then maybe. It does show a total disregard for 'normal' people. He was brought up and educated to behave like this.

[bcnram]

23 hours ago, Highgate said:

In Iran, Article 37 of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran states: "Innocence is to be presumed, and no one is to be held guilty of a charge unless his or her guilt has been established by a competent court".

Not that I agree with some of their interpretations of what is a crime and what isn't, but they do seem to hold to the notion of innocent until proven guilty.

I understood that there was a trial. Maybe no a long one, but nevertheless a trial.

 

[bcnram]

38 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

No the knife wielding scroats are not normal. But they aren't our new PM. What a weird comparison.

This behaviour is not normal. It's disgusting...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/07/oxford-bullingdon-club-boris-johnson-sexism-violence-bullying-culture

 

 

43 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

No the knife wielding scroats are not normal. But they aren't our new PM. What a weird comparison.

This behaviour is not normal. It's disgusting...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/07/oxford-bullingdon-club-boris-johnson-sexism-violence-bullying-culture

Not weird at all, you generalised over all Old Etonians no mention of Bullingdon Club. a reminder for you:  It would be a start. Old Etonians are not normal. 

[Stive Pesley]

34 minutes ago, R@M said:

 Every single person has some sort of skeleton or regret waiting to be released should they try to get elected. 

Until it's Corbyn and then it's unforgiveable right?

[Stive Pesley]

 

[MaltRam]

15 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'm sure you'd be advocating getting behind Corbyn should he manage a miracle and get into power. Of course that won't happen because his MPs can't even get behind him. 

I never got behind Blair, despite voting for him. Why would I get behind a man who I know I can't trust with the NHS?. 

That's according to an ex Tory PM, not a liberal lefty know-nothing do-gooder SJW, by the way. 

If Jeremy Corbyn was going into bat for Great Britain, I'd back him all day long.

I slightly resent the implication of hypocrisy, and I must question why you voted for someone you never supported?

[Highgate]

59 minutes ago, bcnram said:

I understood that there was a trial. Maybe no a long one, but nevertheless a trial.

I thought you were disputing the fact that Iranian law considers people to be innocent until proven guilty just like in the UK (at least technically).  Apologies if that was not what you were doing. 

[Highgate]

7 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Not in the slightest. It has always been in the interests of the EU to make the process as difficult and scary for us as they could, in order to put off any other country from thinking about doing the same.

A perfectly logical policy as well.

I've never understood why this doesn't appear to be common knowledge. Brexit presents a very obvious existential threat to the EU and it wants to preserve the Union above all else.  An easy Brexit followed by a UK visibly prospering outside the EU would be the death knell to the "European project'.

The EU has no wish to liquidate itself. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I've never understood why this doesn't appear to be common knowledge. Brexit presents a very obvious existential threat to the EU and it wants to preserve the Union above all else.  An easy Brexit followed by a UK visibly prospering outside the EU would be the death knell to the "European project'.

The EU has no wish to liquidate itself. 

And they absolutely have to show that they can and will protect their individual members. In this case the republic of Ireland which, through a decision it had no part in, potentially stands to be very adversely affected. 

Why is this not seen by Westminster and much bigger efforts made towards them?

[Highgate]

9 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

And they absolutely have to show that they can and will protect their individual members. In this case the republic of Ireland which, through a decision it had no part in, potentially stands to be very adversely affected. 

Why is this not seen by Westminster and much bigger efforts made towards them?

Indeed.

But what efforts can be made that will keep everyone happy? I guess that's the problem.  ROI, which will be undoubtedly be hugely effected economically by Brexit, is insisting that a hard border must be avoided at all costs.  It is after all one of the basic building blocks of the GFA which has kept the peace on the island for more than 20 years and something both countries signed up to. Hence the backstop...which is paradoxically making a No Deal Brexit more likely, which would then necessitate a Hard Border after all. 

The original backstop proposed by the EU, applied only to N.Ireland, but at the insistence of the DUP it was extended to the whole of the UK.  But if a hard border could not be avoided after the post Brexit trade deal have been agreed, then the UK would be stuck in the EU customs Union and could not pull out until the EU agreed.  An intolerable position for Brexiteers.

So what can be done?

I wonder will Bojo try to shaft the Unionists?  Go back and agree with the EU's original version of the backstop, applying only to N.Ireland, then try to get that through parliament (essentially May's withdrawal agreement with that one change), so Brexit can be achieved by Oct 31. Then call a general election, as he obviously would no longer have the support of the DUP, but after successfully getting the UK out of the EU, he would hope for a surge in support for the Tories, so he would no longer need them anyway. 

 

 

[ariotofmyown]

Anyone feeling even more optimistic now with Johnson's new cabinet? Good idea getting Rabb in as foreign sec, might mean that Johnson won't be remembered as our worst ever holder of that position. Patel always comes across as a fool who had been sacked for lying...sound familiar? That moron who was the ex-Defence sec is also back in, 2 months after getting sacked.

Could this be the worst cabinet ever? Such little experience combined with loads of flawed characters.

Doesn't seem to match what Johnson had been banging on about in regards to unity. Saying one thing and doing another. Again.

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 hours ago, Highgate said:

Indeed.

But what efforts can be made that will keep everyone happy? I guess that's the problem.  ROI, which will be undoubtedly be hugely effected economically by Brexit, is insisting that a hard border must be avoided at all costs.  It is after all one of the basic building blocks of the GFA which has kept the peace on the island for more than 20 years and something both countries signed up to. Hence the backstop...which is paradoxically making a No Deal Brexit more likely, which would then necessitate a Hard Border after all. 

The original backstop proposed by the EU, applied only to N.Ireland, but at the insistence of the DUP it was extended to the whole of the UK.  But if a hard border could not be avoided after the post Brexit trade deal have been agreed, then the UK would be stuck in the EU customs Union and could not pull out until the EU agreed.  An intolerable position for Brexiteers.

So what can be done?

I wonder will Bojo try to shaft the Unionists?  Go back and agree with the EU's original version of the backstop, applying only to N.Ireland, then try to get that through parliament (essentially May's withdrawal agreement with that one change), so Brexit can be achieved by Oct 31. Then call a general election, as he obviously would no longer have the support of the DUP, but after successfully getting the UK out of the EU, he would hope for a surge in support for the Tories, so he would no longer need them anyway. 

 

 

That's the summary of it all. The only scenario in which everyone is happy is UK outside of the EU customs union but with a trade agreement comprehensive enough to not require the so-called "hard border".

That can be achieved. But might not be...the trade agreement bit is not legally binding. 

Each side has therefore scenario planned for that eventuality but have irreconcilable priorities and positions from which they believe that they cannot move. 

I see no obvious way out of this scenario so logically we must somehow make it impossible to be in it. Expect some ramping up of the political declaration with a load of boris Johnson rhetoric about "British spunk" or some such nonsense and he will try to ram it through parliament, with the real agreements already being quietly sorted by shadowy nods and winks.

[Uptherams]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

I've never understood why this doesn't appear to be common knowledge. Brexit presents a very obvious existential threat to the EU and it wants to preserve the Union above all else.  An easy Brexit followed by a UK visibly prospering outside the EU would be the death knell to the "European project'.

The EU has no wish to liquidate itself. 

Not necessarily. Federalism is going to be a very hard sell, which is why there will be a two speed EU. That's their big battle. 

We'll got back to what Donald Tusk offered and May rejected. A free trade deal coined as Canada plus. 

[Uptherams]

3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Anyone feeling even more optimistic now with Johnson's new cabinet? Good idea getting Rabb in as foreign sec, might mean that Johnson won't be remembered as our worst ever holder of that position. Patel always comes across as a fool who had been sacked for lying...sound familiar? That moron who was the ex-Defence sec is also back in, 2 months after getting sacked.

Could this be the worst cabinet ever? Such little experience combined with loads of flawed characters.

Doesn't seem to match what Johnson had been banging on about in regards to unity. Saying one thing and doing another. Again.

You can never please some people. ??Anyone want to praise him for how diverse his cabinet is? 

[Pearl Ram]

I’ll pass on that, when it comes to running the country, it should be the best person for any specific post for me, diversity is stuff the BBC and councils should be looking for praise for.

[1967Ram]

1 hour ago, HantsRam said:

That's the summary of it all. The only scenario in which everyone is happy is UK outside of the EU customs union but with a trade agreement comprehensive enough to not require the so-called "hard border".

That can be achieved. But might not be...the trade agreement bit is not legally binding. 

Each side has therefore scenario planned for that eventuality but have irreconcilable priorities and positions from which they believe that they cannot move. 

I see no obvious way out of this scenario so logically we must somehow make it impossible to be in it. Expect some ramping up of the political declaration with a load of boris Johnson rhetoric about "British spunk" or some such nonsense and he will try to ram it through parliament, with the real agreements already being quietly sorted by shadowy nods and winks.

I agree with much of this. Your prediction of Johnson's possible plan makes sense. However, unfortunately, I don't see any scenario where everyone will be happy. There's a bumpy road ahead of us!

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

You can never please some people. ??Anyone want to praise him for how diverse his cabinet is? 

Good point. I forgot about that as diversity is the normal state with all the people I work with. For a racist old Etonian though, it's a big deal, even if it's just for show to pretend he is liberal.

I'm most worried about Rabb.

[Uptherams]

17 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Good point. I forgot about that as diversity is the normal state with all the people I work with. For a racist old Etonian though, it's a big deal, even if it's just for show to pretend he is liberal.

I'm most worried about Rabb.

Yawn