eddie Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: It's that sort of condescending attitude that led to the brexit result in the first place eddie,so we'll done for continuing in the same vein. These people, these ridiculous people, are prepared to see the entire United Kingdom and even their own party sacrificed upon the alter of what has become little more than a cult. These aren't your common-or-garden Brexiteers being discussed here - these are fully-fledged, signed-up members of the Conservative Party. Did you read the article? Did you look at the results of the poll? If you did, and you actually agree with them (i.e. you would be prepared to destroy the country, see the UK break up, see your own political party die, just to be able to leave the EU), then you really need to invest in rubber wallpaper because you are part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Just now, eddie said: These people, these ridiculous people, are prepared to see the entire United Kingdom and even their own party sacrificed upon the alter of what has become little more than a cult. These aren't your common-or-garden Brexiteers being discussed here - these are fully-fledged, signed-up members of the Conservative Party. Did you read the article? Did you look at the results of the poll? If you did, and you actually agree with them (i.e. you would be prepared to destroy the country, see the UK break up, see your own political party die, just to be able to leave the EU), then you really need to invest in rubber wallpaper because you are part of the problem. There you go again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: There you go again..... You did read it - and you do agree? Christ on a bike. These were direct blooming questions which received direct blooming answers. Being incredulous in the face of such utter hatred isn't condescention - it's genuine bafflement. Thank goodness I'll be dead in a few years. I cannot stand the society we have become.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 3 hours ago, jono said: Yes ( and we’ll spoken ) .. For sure a civil rights movement - and these were many over the worst years, I remember well the pair Catholic and Protestant mothers who caused a real stir and I think made serious strides and in publicising what real people thought. i make no excuse for the ugly side of the orange order. Narrow minded thugs the lot of them but the hard edge cannot be avoided but for a bit of geography between 2 democracies, one with institutional bigots, the IRA in persuit of a purely political aim put bombs in Pubs, Hotels, outside fast food outlets and wherever they felt justified. Adams was a political apologist for that, knew the people who were doing that and many politicians on the far left were more than comfortable giving tacit support - for no other reason than they were a thorn in the side of multiple governments in the UK. Hulme, Major, Ashdown, Blair and Mo Mowlem were all decent pragmatic people trying to find a way rather than play some perverse political game It's often forgot the UDA and UVF planted many bombs in Southern Ireland particularly in 73 and 74 in an ever increasing tit for tat killing and injuring over 300 people - they weren't just bigots , they were equally dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 5 hours ago, jono said: Yes ( and we’ll spoken ) .. For sure a civil rights movement - and these were many over the worst years, I remember well the pair Catholic and Protestant mothers who caused a real stir and I think made serious strides and in publicising what real people thought. i make no excuse for the ugly side of the orange order. Narrow minded thugs the lot of them but the hard edge cannot be avoided but for a bit of geography between 2 democracies, one with institutional bigots, the IRA in persuit of a purely political aim put bombs in Pubs, Hotels, outside fast food outlets and wherever they felt justified. Adams was a political apologist for that, knew the people who were doing that and many politicians on the far left were more than comfortable giving tacit support - for no other reason than they were a thorn in the side of multiple governments in the UK. Hulme, Major, Ashdown, Blair and Mo Mowlem were all decent pragmatic people trying to find a way rather than play some perverse political game I'd have no desire whatsoever to defend Adams, just glad that the decent pragmatic people, as you put it, managed to persuade him that peaceful methods were more conducive to his ultimate political aim than continuing the violence. I'd credit David Trimble too, for showing the flexibility and a willingness to compromise that Northern Ireland isn't exactly famous for. I can't comment on the motivations of the various British politicians who met Adams, I simply don't know what they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: It's often forgot the UDA and UVF planted many bombs in Southern Ireland particularly in 73 and 74 in an ever increasing tit for tat killing and injuring over 300 people - they weren't just bigots , they were equally dangerous. British government files relating to those bombings remain 'classified' despite repeated requests from the Irish government and from the families of the victims, for the relevant documents to be opened and independently examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 9 hours ago, eddie said: You did read it - and you do agree? Christ on a bike. These were direct blooming questions which received direct blooming answers. Being incredulous in the face of such utter hatred isn't condescention - it's genuine bafflement. Thank goodness I'll be dead in a few years. I cannot stand the society we have become.. It doesn't help that The "Independent" (for it is, no longer) has written the article in such an inflamatory way. Also they don't define what "significant damage" to the economy means. I'm not a rabid Brexiteer but if the Scots wanted independence and the Irish wanted to unify, I'd be fine with that. What you call Destroying the country, I call self determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Well, that debate last night was a bit rubbish wasn't it?. Not sure why I was expecting anything different, though. It felt like the first episode of The Apprentice & a bit desperate from them all. You'd think Gove would have been in government long enough to unveil his "detailed plan" that he kept going on about, before now. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 It was unbearable to watch - none of them gave any meaningful answers to any of the questions put to them. None of them could explain how they would actually achieve Brexit. What was the point? The only good bit was that Javid got them all to agree to a formal investigation into the institutional islamaphobia within the party. Oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, Wolfie said: Well, that debate last night was a bit rubbish wasn't it?. Not sure why I was expecting anything different, though. It felt like the first episode of The Apprentice & a bit desperate from them all. You'd think Gove would have been in government long enough to unveil his "detailed plan" that he kept going on about, before now. Any thoughts? Watched about 15 minutes. Such a rubbish format, but I guess they were too scared to appear in front of an audience. Stewart is the only one not delusional on Brexit ie how does no deal/May's deal get through parliament. I'm thinking now that PM Johnson might not be the worst thing, especially around reports regarding promising to MPs whatever they want to hear. He'll probably end up with no support from either remain or leave tories when he clearly has no plan. An early vote of no confidence will hopefully see a general election quickly, which will turn into a referendum between the Brexit party and hopefully a Remain focused Labour. We'll might then end up with a Labour/Lim Dem/SNP etc coalition, with few Tory mps left and a collection of disparate Brexit party ones too. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 30 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Watched about 15 minutes. Such a rubbish format, but I guess they were too scared to appear in front of an audience. Stewart is the only one not delusional on Brexit ie how does no deal/May's deal get through parliament. Agreed. Why bother having a 15 year old on, demanding they promise to the totally unrealistic target of going zero Carbon by 2025?. 30 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I'm thinking now that PM Johnson might not be the worst thing, especially around reports regarding promising to MPs whatever they want to hear. He'll probably end up with no support from either remain or leave tories when he clearly has no plan. An early vote of no confidence will hopefully see a general election quickly, which will turn into a referendum between the Brexit party and hopefully a Remain focused Labour. We'll might then end up with a Labour/Lim Dem/SNP etc coalition, with few Tory mps left and a collection of disparate Brexit party ones too. Fingers crossed. Won't happen. With the Brexit party as strong as they are - stealing both Labour & Tory votes, there's no way either main party will want an election until after Brexit & probably quite a while after. If we leave on 31st October, I'd predict an election next spring at the earliest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Wolfie said: It doesn't help that The "Independent" (for it is, no longer) has written the article in such an inflamatory way. Also they don't define what "significant damage" to the economy means. I'm not a rabid Brexiteer but if the Scots wanted independence and the Irish wanted to unify, I'd be fine with that. What you call Destroying the country, I call self determination. Might I remind you that the party concerned are still called "The Conservative and Unionist Party", therefore the members' wishes are akin to turkeys voting for Christmas. Whilst I agree that The Independent are clearly 'left-oriented', it's hardly an inflammatory article - it's quite faithfully representing the results of a YouGov poll, and the associated follow-up article written by Matt Smith of YouGov (yes, the Matt Smith who was a leading light in the very right-of-centre think tank 'Policy Exchange' before moving to YouGov). The YouGov article... https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye The data... https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mxtlaay6zu/YouGov - Conservative members poll 190614.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, eddie said: The YouGov article... https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye It;s getting weird isn't it? They would rather break up the Union and crash out the EU than see a Corbyn governement. It's probably fair to say that even if Corbyn came out and backed the break up of the Union AND hard brexit that they'd still vote for "the other guy". Hard to think why they are so scared of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, StivePesley said: It;s getting weird isn't it? They would rather break up the Union and crash out the EU than see a Corbyn governement. It's probably fair to say that even if Corbyn came out and backed the break up of the Union AND hard brexit that they'd still vote for "the other guy". Hard to think why they are so scared of him He might make poorer people a bit better off and may make the rich slightly less wealthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, eddie said: Might I remind you that the party concerned are still called "The Conservative and Unionist Party", therefore the members' wishes are akin to turkeys voting for Christmas. The results for whether party members would be unhappy if the things happened were: Scotland leaving: 70% Northern Ireland leaving: 75% Tory party destroyed: 92% Significant damage to economy: 90% Whilst I agree that they then go on to say that the above would, however, be a price worth paying for Brexit - wouldn't it be more strange if people who wanted us to split from the EU at the same time didn't accept that the Scots and Irish would have a claim to do the same from the UK?. Using survey terms like "significant" in a survey is awful. What;s significant damage?. 1% fall in GDP? 10%? 34 minutes ago, eddie said: Whilst I agree that The Independent are clearly 'left-oriented', it's hardly an inflammatory article Using language like "trashing" in the headline isn't inflammatory or sensationalist?. Righto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 49 minutes ago, StivePesley said: It;s getting weird isn't it? They would rather break up the Union and crash out the EU than see a Corbyn governement. It's probably fair to say that even if Corbyn came out and backed the break up of the Union AND hard brexit that they'd still vote for "the other guy". Hard to think why they are so scared of him Because he would destroy the economy?. He's a big fan of the Venezuelan government. Last time I looked, their inflation rate had gone from 29% when he took office to 10,000,000% because of printing money and uncontrolled defecit spending. Edit: The Venezuelan central bank are now saying it's 53,000,000%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 17 minutes ago, Wolfie said: Because he would destroy the economy?. He's a big fan of the Venezuelan government. Last time I looked, their inflation rate had gone from 29% when he took office to 10,000,000% because of printing money and uncontrolled defecit spending. Edit: The Venezuelan central bank are now saying it's 53,000,000%. That's a fairly weak line to draw. What's happening in Venezuela is a complex and long story, and there is no evidence to suggest what happened there would happen here if Corbyn became PM. Sure it might - if you're being pessimistic, but there is probably more chance of the triggers that caused hyperinflation in Venezuela happening here as a result of a hard brexit! In fact austerity and neoliberalism have laid all the foundations for it. It all starts with massive wealth inequality, and that's what we have here (and is realistically the main reason behind the brexit vote) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 38 minutes ago, StivePesley said: That's a fairly weak line to draw. It's really not. 38 minutes ago, StivePesley said: What's happening in Venezuela is a complex and long story, and there is no evidence to suggest what happened there would happen here if Corbyn became PM. Sure it might - if you're being pessimistic) Well there were hundreds of billions of pounds of spending pledges in the 2017 manifesto that Corbyn himself said on the day of the launch that he didn't know where the money would be coming from (printing it?) or just added to national debt (defecit spending). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Has it dawned on people yet that one of those 5 bozos is going to be the next Prime Minister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 No more BBC debates. What a shitshow. Thanks to the Brexit Party, the licence fee being scrapped is on the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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