Sith Happens Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/a52-roadworks-wont-finished-till-2518204 The road works on the A52 now won't be finished until summer 2020. And the cost has gone from 15 Million to 42 Million. How can this happen? Is it that whomever is doing the work has the council over a barrel? Pay up or we leave it as it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Is it PFI? Sounds like the deal Mel did to buy Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexxxxx Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Probably would be best if the entirety of the A52 was managed by Highways England. A City Council is just not gonna be able to manage a project like this but is bread and butter to a larger authority. Construction costs always go up so no surprise there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I see all the extra costs and over run problems are being blamed on the guy in charge of the project. Personally I think that the incompetent idiots, that hired a guy that wasn't up to the job, should take the responsibility for the fiasco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Good old Banwait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 It appears that the problems stem from contractors being asked to quote for work on an incomplete specification which then altered, got more expensive and extended in time as work was added and problems discovered. Not surprisingly. If true 'incompetent' is the politest description you could use for both councillors and officers. You wish they were competent enough to get it sorted quickly so that the rest of us could use the thing. But it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 https://www.derby.gov.uk/media/derbycitycouncil/contentassets/documents/transport/DerbyCity_Council_Head_of_Paid_Service_Update_Report_A52_Final.pdf senior managers and directors typically remote from the project. Probably paying more attention to the whims of councillors than resourcing and supporting the engineering project delivery team. Ultimately its an open ended procurement without fixed design, specification or cost; and belief in the virtue of early contractor involvement, but without understanding or communicating the risks. "the Strategic Director has confirmed to us that she believed that there were mature designs in place at the time of works commencing and this was also the message being relayed to Members". Duh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 A copy of the original plans has been released: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Paul71 said: A copy of the original plans has been released: So the new Notts/Derby/London mainline is to run across the A52? Even with the level crossings bringing Brian Clough Way to a standstill every 30 minutes, it's gotta be an improvement of what we have currently! Can't wait for this to be finished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 8 hours ago, ilkleyram said: It appears that the problems stem from contractors being asked to quote for work on an incomplete specification which then altered, got more expensive and extended in time as work was added and problems discovered. Not surprisingly. If true 'incompetent' is the politest description you could use for both councillors and officers. You wish they were competent enough to get it sorted quickly so that the rest of us could use the thing. But it won't happen. I think incompetence could have its own thread. I don’t know whether it’s too much booze or fast food or whether it’s because we are all getting lazier but on a daily basis I deal with organisations who don’t get it right or simply don’t get it done. Projects in my home city of Bristol all seem to overrun. Roadworks causing disruption never seem to have people working on them and the same roads get dug up again and again. .... or am I just getting old??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: I think incompetence could have its own thread. I don’t know whether it’s too much booze or fast food or whether it’s because we are all getting lazier but on a daily basis I deal with organisations who don’t get it right or simply don’t get it done. Projects in my home city of Bristol all seem to overrun. Roadworks causing disruption never seem to have people working on them and the same roads get dug up again and again. .... or am I just getting old??? Adult sized nappies should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 A mate of mine said he is part of this process for his job, and times are so bad companies bid deliberately low to get the contract in the full knowledge they can't complete it for the money. But either they are halfway through and have them over a barrel or worst case they get 6months work before they go under!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Chester40 said: A mate of mine said he is part of this process for his job, and times are so bad companies bid deliberately low to get the contract in the full knowledge they can't complete it for the money. But either they are halfway through and have them over a barrel or worst case they get 6months work before they go under!! That is just how the construction industry works. There is so much competition with bazillions of construction companies these days that are essentially the same in virtually every respect. The only way to stand out is to bid super low to try and win the work - usually with razor thin profits or making a loss. The company then plans to make enough money from compensation events and other extras to try and make it profitable. The company who won these A52 works seem to have hit the jackpot. The council shouldn't have tried to run a major construction project with no experience and no idea what they are doing - now it is going to cost them big time. I work in construction myself and have never, ever, ever worked on a project that has been delivered for the original cost. (You should see how much money gets wasted by water authorities!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 On 07/02/2019 at 17:20, Paul71 said: https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/a52-roadworks-wont-finished-till-2518204 The road works on the A52 now won't be finished until summer 2020. And the cost has gone from 15 Million to 42 Million. How can this happen? Is it that whomever is doing the work has the council over a barrel? Pay up or we leave it as it is? Have you ever been to a council meeting ?It's like being in a parallel universe , if there's a right and wrong way of looking at things these people pick the wrong one every time .It's run on a lowest common denominator type mentality mixed in with committee style management . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 10/02/2019 at 08:58, Paul71 said: A copy of the original plans has been released: On 10/02/2019 at 10:05, Mucker1884 said: So the new Notts/Derby/London mainline is to run across the A52? Even with the level crossings bringing Brian Clough Way to a standstill every 30 minutes, it's gotta be an improvement of what we have currently! Can't wait for this to be finished! do you think driving on the right will help also? Quite innovative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 10/02/2019 at 11:06, GenBr said: That is just how the construction industry works. There is so much competition with bazillions of construction companies these days that are essentially the same in virtually every respect. The only way to stand out is to bid super low to try and win the work - usually with razor thin profits or making a loss. The company then plans to make enough money from compensation events and other extras to try and make it profitable. Not just the construction industry - exactly the same in most industries that tender work. The company I work for implemented an IT system for the customer, got it working, all was fine. Did an upgrade project a year or two later - again, all pretty much fine. The customer then wanted to do another upgrade, but another IT consultancy underbid us so much that it was a no brainer for the customer to choose them. We knew full well that there was no way they could do it for what they bid. Because they didn't have the experience of doing the original install, the previous upgrade or any of the knowledge of the customer's general IT infrastructure Lo and behold they got stuck - the customer had to then hire us as well to assist them, and it's been a nightmare, as they now try and blame us for everything that they get wrong and all the incumbent politics of a project with two competitors having to play nice. No surprise that it's already a year overdue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 07/02/2019 at 17:20, Paul71 said: https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/a52-roadworks-wont-finished-till-2518204 The road works on the A52 now won't be finished until summer 2020. And the cost has gone from 15 Million to 42 Million. How can this happen? Is it that whomever is doing the work has the council over a barrel? Pay up or we leave it as it is? Dare I be so bold as to say. Someone would have sat down and worked out the length of road v resources and come up with a figure. What he would have based it on would have been how much manpower v time taken + (materials). Obviously in this case he might not have banked on British workers who seem to spend more time drinking tea, reading the news paper and standing around watching one person work. Ergo the time will be extended by a good few months, thus increasing the cost Awaiting incoming ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: Not just the construction industry - exactly the same in most industries that tender work. The company I work for implemented an IT system for the customer, got it working, all was fine. Did an upgrade project a year or two later - again, all pretty much fine. The customer then wanted to do another upgrade, but another IT consultancy underbid us so much that it was a no brainer for the customer to choose them. We knew full well that there was no way they could do it for what they bid. Because they didn't have the experience of doing the original install, the previous upgrade or any of the knowledge of the customer's general IT infrastructure Lo and behold they got stuck - the customer had to then hire us as well to assist them, and it's been a nightmare, as they now try and blame us for everything that they get wrong and all the incumbent politics of a project with two competitors having to play nice. No surprise that it's already a year overdue. This is exactly it. It's the whole concept of tendering that's at fault. Tendering is the root cause and suppliers all 'play the game' because that's the only way they can win these deals. Instead of this kind of arms length pitching, there such be a much closer collaborative process with two or three suppliers where trust and a productive working relationship can be properly established. You soon learn who id REALLY offering the best deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 27 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: This is exactly it. It's the whole concept of tendering that's at fault. Tendering is the root cause and suppliers all 'play the game' because that's the only way they can win these deals. Instead of this kind of arms length pitching, there such be a much closer collaborative process with two or three suppliers where trust and a productive working relationship can be properly established. You soon learn who id REALLY offering the best deal. Probably at the root of it is the fact that (very often) those putting out to tender don't ever really know 100% what they want, so they devolve the responsibility for that to the bidders to interpret. That's clearly a dangerous situation as it becomes a race to the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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