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Ambitious

Tyrone Mings Stamp

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19 minutes ago, Parsnip said:

So was Bogle's vicious assault at Accrington!

Well, Bogel's was a professional foul and a red based on the cynicism /spoiling not danger/violence.

But yeah, all the good tackles that get yellows, all the accidental arm contacts that get reds and then Mings the merciless get away with this completely and it's not even the first time he's done it, but because it's a reading player nothing happens, if he'd done it to a Premier league player(like he did before) or even a Leeds player, he'd be punished.

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49 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Currently though apparently BJ's mouthful of shirt is far far worse

No it's not, but the ref didn't see Johnson's shirt bite so the FA were able to take retrospective action. 

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Just now, Spanish said:

why was he booked?

For the scuffle, but no mention was made of the "bite" which was why the FA were able to take action.

The rules stink, they need to be changed and this maybe the incident that triggers it, but for now little they can do. 

Nothing stopping the player from contacting the Police and reporting it as an assault though as far as I'm aware. 

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Bradley Johnson has been suspended for four games after he was found to have committed an act of violent conduct for which the standard punishment would be clearly insufficient.

The Derby County player was involved in an incident with Stoke City's Joe Allen during Wednesday's game [28 November 2018] which was not seen by the match officials but caught on camera.

Johnson denied the charge of violent conduct with an Independent Regulatory Commission then considering The FA's allegation that the three-match sanction should be increased.

In addition to the suspension for violent conduct, the player will also serve a one-match ban for accumulating five cautions.

http://www.thefa.com/news/2018/nov/29/bradley-johnson-charged-291118

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4 minutes ago, David said:

For the scuffle, but no mention was made of the "bite" which was why the FA were able to take action.

The rules stink, they need to be changed and this maybe the incident that triggers it, but for now little they can do. 

Nothing stopping the player from contacting the Police and reporting it as an assault though as far as I'm aware. 

yep I know the rules but the effect is to punish one where the 'victim' has not been injured and not the one where the VICTIM has been 

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1 minute ago, Spanish said:

yep I know the rules but the effect is to punish one where the 'victim' has not been injured and not the one where the VICTIM has been 

If you know the rules then why say they believe Johnson's bite is worse than Mings stamp? They can't just change the rules as they go along.

Quote

 

The FRA (Football Regulatory Authority) has now given its approval so that The FA will be able to consider retrospective action in the two following situations, in addition to those already within the existing charging policy:

firstly, for acts of violent conduct that occur secondarily to a challenge for the ball;

and secondly, in off-the-ball incidents where one or more match official did see the players coming together, but the match officials’ view was such that none of them had the opportunity to make a decision on an act of misconduct that took place within that coming together.

This policy adjustment will be implemented in the Premier League, Football League and Football Conference (National Division) from 22 November, immediately following the international break. The FA has contacted clubs in these leagues to inform them of the impending change.

 

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/06/not-seen-incidents-extension-retrospective-action

See above, this covers Johnson and Allen's off the ball incident, where as Mings and Oliveria occurred whilst challenging for the ball.

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23 minutes ago, David said:

No it's not, but the ref didn't see Johnson's shirt bite so the FA were able to take retrospective action. 

"It is sometimes difficult for officials to see such incidents, as they are often concentrating solely on the challenge for possession of the ball, and we are mindful of this. Also, where off-the-ball incidents are concerned, the policy adjustment will allow action to be taken where an act of misconduct could not have been seen by the match officials, even though they may have seen some part of the players coming together.

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/06/not-seen-incidents-extension-retrospective-action

 

I interpret this as, the ref saw the collision and deemed the 'carelessness' as yellow card worthy. However, he clearly didn't see any intent (which recently released footage seems to indicate) so could still be punished.

As it happens, the review panel needs to make a unanimous decision. Previous footage may not have been enough to convince all members of the panel to consider it to have been intentional.

There are extraordinary exceptions, such as in the case involving Ben Thatcher in the match between Man City and Portsmouth in 2006.

 

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Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

"It is sometimes difficult for officials to see such incidents, as they are often concentrating solely on the challenge for possession of the ball, and we are mindful of this. Also, where off-the-ball incidents are concerned, the policy adjustment will allow action to be taken where an act of misconduct could not have been seen by the match officials, even though they may have seen some part of the players coming together.

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/06/not-seen-incidents-extension-retrospective-action

 

I interpret this as, the ref saw the collision and deemed the 'carelessness' as yellow card worthy. However, he clearly didn't see any intent (which recently released footage seems to indicate) so could still be punished.

As it happens, the review panel needs to make a unanimous decision. Previous footage may not have been enough to convince all members of the panel to consider it to have been intentional.

There are extraordinary exceptions, such as in the case involving Ben Thatcher in the match between Man City and Portsmouth in 2006.

 

I think this applies more to the Johnson and Allen incident than the Mings as the referee would have noted the coming together but not the bite, where as the referee would have noted that Mings foot connected with Oliveria's face, saw it as an accident and the full incident is covered.

Worth mentioning the Reading manager also thought it was an accident initially.

If we're not going to use technology and allow match officials to check incidents, the rule needs changing where they can take retrospective action on all violent conduct, regardless of what was seen at the time and I think that will come in.

As you say though, a unanimous decision is needed, having seen it multiple times I'm still on the fence to be honest, I don't see it as a clear cut could have avoided, we're talking about a player in full stride having to make split second situations. Trying to look at it as an isolated incident rather than previous for it with Ibrahimovic. 

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8 minutes ago, David said:

I think this applies more to the Johnson and Allen incident than the Mings as the referee would have noted the coming together but not the bite, where as the referee would have noted that Mings foot connected with Oliveria's face, saw it as an accident and the full incident is covered.

Worth mentioning the Reading manager also thought it was an accident initially.

If we're not going to use technology and allow match officials to check incidents, the rule needs changing where they can take retrospective action on all violent conduct, regardless of what was seen at the time and I think that will come in.

As you say though, a unanimous decision is needed, having seen it multiple times I'm still on the fence to be honest, I don't see it as a clear cut could have avoided, we're talking about a player in full stride having to make split second situations. Trying to look at it as an isolated incident rather than previous for it with Ibrahimovic. 

Agree with your last paragraph. I've watched it loads of times and from the various angles available and still can't decide if it was deliberate, clumsy or just bad luck. At slow motion it looks a lot worse, but then any coming together at slow motion looks worse. I think it would be very difficult to prove, and using past crimes as evidence shouldn't be an option. He was punished for the previous stamping, that doesn't mean that this one was deliberate.

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2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

if he'd done it to a Premier league player(like he did before) or even a Leeds player, he'd be punished.

We all know that this isn't true, Leeds are always so hard done to! 

The authorities have an agenda to ensure they don't get back to the prem, it's not their fault!

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1 hour ago, David said:

If you know the rules then why say they believe Johnson's bite is worse than Mings stamp? They can't just change the rules as they go along.

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/06/not-seen-incidents-extension-retrospective-action

See above, this covers Johnson and Allen's off the ball incident, where as Mings and Oliveria occurred whilst challenging for the ball.

jeez I give up you're right as always

Edited by Spanish

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Mings is actually a great personality off the pitch, one that I have huge respect for, but there is absolutely no chance he didn't mean to make contact with Oliviera. It's not the first time he's done it either, which makes it worse. He's clearly not incontrol of his emotions on the pitch and that's dangerous. He should have been banned for 5-10 games for this incident. 

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The new angle is not as good as the original footage imo but I have no doubt that it was deliberate. A defender trying to intimidate an an opponent by 'leaving one on him'. Could that be proven beyond all reasonable doubt? Probably not.

It seems that the intention of the f.a. rule change is to allow themselves the opportunity to take retrospective action for incidents whether they are on the ball or off the ball, if there is new evidence that the referee either missed, or gives a clearer view. The intention is to protect players without under mining the referee. Would taking action against Mings undermine the referee? No. There is surely a case for the f.a. to act even within the convoluted wording of their own rules. 

The punishment metered out to Johnson was farcical. The lack of action in this case is extremely regrettable. They should be seen to have investigated and had a hearing, even if the result of that is that they could not conclude with absolute certainty that the action was deliberate. Whether it was on the ball or off the ball is irrelevant. I can only assume that they are pre-judging the potential investigation and avoiding their responsibility to be seen to act, due to the ambiguity of the evidence.

yellow card for the f.a. 

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