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ramsbottom

Racism (moved from Ashley Cole transfer thread)

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28 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

How is this thread allowed? Seems to be a fairly nasty pile-on to @ramsbottom for saying something that has triggered the usual suspects and ended in the same old circular argument ("no YOU'RE the racist for saying that some people might be racist!" etc)

Remember Ron Atkinson on Desailly? "He's what is known in some schools as a ******* lazy thick n***er."

That's the subconcious attitude that Ramsbottom was referring to (and @Paul71 confirms that people like this do still exist in the stands).

Just because no one on here thinks  like that doesn't mean he's wrong and it doesn't exist. Try and remember that it wasn't a personal attack eh? There is no need to behave like this

That's all I have to say - I'm bored of it and I've really not missed it

YAWN

But he was not talking about Atkinson ,he was making a generalisation that negative views on Tom Ince as a footballer were motivated and or influenced by his skin colour , whilst I have no doubt that there are the odd few that this is true of but it’s wrong and unfair to tar the many with the sins of the few ,,, 

the ultimate result is that people are then put in a position of not expressing a negative view of Ince as a player for fear of being tainted as racist or try to qualify their opinions with a caveat that they are not racially influenced ,

its no big thing for Ramsbottam to look at his original post and say perhaps it is an over generalisation,

as I say I think Ince is a decent player and I have never seen anything that hints that he might be anything other than a very decent bloke 

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5 minutes ago, Archied said:

whilst I have no doubt that there are the odd few that this is true of but it’s wrong and unfair to tar the many with the sins of the few

I thought for a minute someone had re-opened one of the terrorism threads and you;'d finally seen sense 🤣

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45 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Remember Ron Atkinson on Desailly? "He's what is known in some schools as a ******* lazy thick n***er."

That's the subconcious attitude that Ramsbottom was referring to (and @Paul71 confirms that people like this do still exist in the stands).

That's a massively false equivalence and you know it. Big Ron making a declarative statement like that is not an example of a subconscious attitude. What's happening here is that people who find Big Ron's behavior abhorrent are being accused of subconsciously holding the same views as him because they had the temerity to criticize one player, who happens to be black.

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16 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

By usual suspects I assume you refer to yourself as well because you're never too far away when racism gets mentioned.

From my point of view this wasn't a general casual racism thread. I was asking the poster how come it's racism when Ince gets criticised yet when Lawrence gets the same criticism it's football related.

There seems to be no evidence of any racist behaviour towards Ince.

@Paul71 has confirmed that he's heard ONE person with a racist view. That's one out of about 25,000 or about 0.004%.

I'm sure there's a person with sexist vies that sit in the crowd, that doesn't mean that any criticisms of players are automatically sexist does it?

You say it's not a personal attack but of course it is, the poster has admitted that there's no proof or evidence of racism so he must just be guessing who is and who isn't racist, which means he is making personal attacks on people.

It's not a personal attack, I haven't called anybody out, or pointed fingers.  I was (as it turns out not very well) highlighting my opinion that some black players receive harsher treatment from the stands, and the media. Of which our new left back & (IMO) Ince are included.  With Ince I didn't say it was purely down to his skin colour, but I think, with some, it was a factor...

Happy to draw a line under this now, It's obvious we won't agree on the subject other from the fact that racism is a poo-y thing all round.  Rest assured that if people begin criticizing Holmes or Tomori I won't start calling anyone a nazi...

5 minutes ago, Archied said:

But he was not talking about Atkinson ,he was making a generalisation that negative views on Tom Ince as a footballer were motivated and or influenced by his skin colour , whilst I have no doubt that there are the odd few that this is true of but it’s wrong and unfair to tar the many with the sins of the few ,,, 

the ultimate result is that people are then put in a position of not expressing a negative view of Ince as a player for fear of being tainted as racist or try to qualify their opinions with a caveat that they are not racially influenced ,

its no big thing for Ramsbottam to look at his original post and say perhaps it is an over generalisation,

as I say I think Ince is a decent player and I have never seen anything that hints that he might be anything other than a very decent bloke 

 

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9 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Back to one of the earlier posts 

yes Raheem Sterling does get unfairly treated by the press and yes It is just because he is a young, successful, rich, black footballer. 

Who, at a time when gun and knife crime is spiralling out of control in black communities, thought it would be a good idea to get a tattoo of a gun.

As far as I am aware, before that the only criticism of him was that he had not scored for England for about 3 years.

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6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Who, at a time when gun and knife crime is spiralling out of control in black communities, thought it would be a good idea to get a tattoo of a gun.

As far as I am aware, before that the only criticism of him was that he had not scored for England for about 3 years.

You're obviously not a Daily Mail reader then...  Thank god!

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8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Who, at a time when gun and knife crime is spiralling out of control in black communities, thought it would be a good idea to get a tattoo of a gun.

As far as I am aware, before that the only criticism of him was that he had not scored for England for about 3 years.

The criticism of his tattoo was painfully stupid and can't really be justified. Sterling is an individual, he is not responsible for the way certain communities may behave simply because he shares the same skin colour as some of them.

Criticize the tattoo all you want. It's ugly, crass, and makes him look like a fool, but it isn't the cause of gun violence.

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9 minutes ago, Anon said:

The criticism of his tattoo was painfully stupid and can't really be justified. Sterling is an individual, he is not responsible for the way certain communities may behave simply because he shares the same skin colour as some of them.

Criticize the tattoo all you want. It's ugly, crass, and makes him look like a fool, but it isn't the cause of gun violence.

No of course he isn't the course of gun crime and nobody has ever said that (as far as I am aware).

Many saw his timing for having a gum tattoo as poor and criticised him for this.

Just the same as many saw Ronaldos picture of himself on a private jet, the day after someone had most likely died in a crash, as poorly timed and for which he has also received criticism...is that racist also? 

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6 minutes ago, Anon said:

The criticism of his tattoo was painfully stupid and can't really be justified. Sterling is an individual, he is not responsible for the way certain communities may behave simply because he shares the same skin colour as some of them.

Criticize the tattoo all you want. It's ugly, crass, and makes him look like a fool, but it isn't the cause of gun violence.

I do find the explanation that Sterling offered as baffling. So after his father was shot dead he vowed never to touch a gun. So he got one tattooed on his leg. Only Sterling knows the true reason. The British press love to run negative stories on any one in the public eye as it sells papers, Rooney, quite rightly has had plenty of negative press, as has Beckham, Terry, Giggs, Gazza plus many more. I always remember Gazza saying that the Italian press would build up their national team before a tournament and the British press would do the total opposite. 

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11 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No of course he isn't the course of gun crime and nobody has ever said that (as far as I am aware).

Many saw his timing for having a gum tattoo as poor and criticised him for this.

Just the same as many saw Ronaldos picture of himself on a private jet, the day after someone had most likely died in a crash, as poorly timed and for which he has also received criticism...is that racist also? 

I don't know if anyone linked the two directly. If not it was heavily implied. Not implied in the subconscious thought crime sense discussed earlier in this thread, actually implied. The Sun printed gun crime statistics in their article about Sterling's tattoo.

No, but I also think it was stupid for people to criticize Ronaldo. People die in planes every single day. I don't see why this particular crash ought to be treated with any special reverence, just because one of the victims happened to be a professional footballer.

Edited by Anon

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15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No of course he isn't the course of gun crime and nobody has ever said that (as far as I am aware).

Many saw his timing for having a gum tattoo as poor and criticised him for this.

Just the same as many saw Ronaldos picture of himself on a private jet, the day after someone had most likely died in a crash, as poorly timed and for which he has also received criticism...is that racist also? 

I think it was poorly timed but not for that reason. To be honest he shouldnt be celebrating being a convicted criminal, maybe its successful footballers like him who flaunt the rules then buy their way out of it that gives footballers a bad name. He should be ashamed of what he has done not lording it because he got away with it.

 

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7 minutes ago, ollycutts1982 said:

I do find the explanation that Sterling offered as baffling. So after his father was shot dead he vowed never to touch a gun. So he got one tattooed on his leg. Only Sterling knows the true reason. The British press love to run negative stories on any one in the public eye as it sells papers, Rooney, quite rightly has had plenty of negative press, as has Beckham, Terry, Giggs, Gazza plus many more. I always remember Gazza saying that the Italian press would build up their national team before a tournament and the British press would do the total opposite. 

I agree that his explanation was ridiculous. My dad died of liver failure, but I'm not going to get a pint pot tattooed on my leg to help me remember not to become an alcoholic.

I accept the point about the press going after anyone in the public eye. I don't think I'd go as far as claiming that Sterling is only targeted because of his race. I just wanted to point out that the press coverage regarding his tattoo was massively unfair.

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