ramsbottom Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 45 minutes ago, Archied said: Never heard such prejudiced clap trap in my life , it’s attitudes like yours that will keep fanning the flames of racism long after the ignorance of real racists could and should be eradicated mainly by education ,, i beleive you are judging people’s motives for their views on Ince simply by the colour of their skin ,, is it only white people who don’t rate Ince ? That's my opinion, and I don't see how it's fanning any flames, I don't condone racism of any kind. I'm not saying all Derby fans are burning crosses in their front garden every other Sunday, but the lad was unfairly put in a bracket by some, and it's possible his skin colour was a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I would say it was more his body language than skin colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: That's my opinion, and I don't see how it's fanning any flames, I don't condone racism of any kind. I'm not saying all Derby fans are burning crosses in their front garden every other Sunday, but the lad was unfairly put in a bracket by some, and it's possible his skin colour was a factor. Did you report this racism to the police out of interest? After all if you don't condone racism I would assume you would take steps to eradicate it? From what you have said on here, it appears that you believe some of our fans behaviour is stuck in the 1980s, I would suggest it's probably your ideas that are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 40 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said: I would say it was more his body language than skin colour. Exactly! I think Lawrence gets similar stick for the same reason. Neither has anything to do with skin colour. Incidentally, when we played Stoke Ince came past us all and looked genuinely surprised and pleased to get a warm round of applause, which he returned with a shy smile. He's just not the demonstrative sort (probably as a reaction to his over-emotional dad!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 28 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Did you report this racism to the police out of interest? After all if you don't condone racism I would assume you would take steps to eradicate it? From what you have said on here, it appears that you believe some of our fans behaviour is stuck in the 1980s, I would suggest it's probably your ideas that are. How could I, it's an opinion, I don't have any proof... At the start of all this I was merely pointing out that I believe some players, who also happen to be black, get a rougher ride from fans/press compared to other players, our newest left back included... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, ramsbottom said: That's my opinion, and I don't see how it's fanning any flames, I don't condone racism of any kind. I'm not saying all Derby fans are burning crosses in their front garden every other Sunday, but the lad was unfairly put in a bracket by some, and it's possible his skin colour was a factor. You say you don’t condone racism of any kind ????? Surely YOU are being racist to suggest that people’s negativity around Ince as a football player is consciously or un consciously racially motivated or are you saying that any non white fan who is negative about Ince is also motivated by his colour ? I quite liked Ince as a player for us ( although I feel his level is championship ) , do you think that’s because of his colour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 22 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: How could I, it's an opinion, I don't have any proof... At the start of all this I was merely pointing out that I believe some players, who also happen to be black, get a rougher ride from fans/press compared to other players, our newest left back included... So it’s ok to hold an opinion that if your white and you don’t rate Ince as a player or his attitude as a player then your a racist ? honestly mate you need to take a good look at opinions ,, they are flawed and offensive generalisations routed in people’s race ,colour or creed and to me that’s the meaning of the word racism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 46 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: How could I, it's an opinion, I don't have any proof... At the start of all this I was merely pointing out that I believe some players, who also happen to be black, get a rougher ride from fans/press compared to other players, our newest left back included... I think it's an unpopular opinion but could be the basis for SOME fans - Unconscious bias comes from a range of different factors However I would imagine for the majority of Ince haters it was as @angieram says and a body language thing - I think Martin suffered from the same thing - He was 'stroppy' when people didn't give him the ball but it was because he always wanted the ball (a positive trait in my mind) - And because Martin didn't run around as much he was derided for it - Unlike Marriott and Wilson who also through exasperation around when people don't pass to them but have very high work rates The Ince/Lawrence comparison is a good one for me - Both flair players who also have good workrate - But sometimes their workrate is applied in the wrong way because they aren't natural defenders 31 minutes ago, Archied said: You say you don’t condone racism of any kind ????? Surely YOU are being racist to suggest that people’s negativity around Ince as a football player is consciously or un consciously racially motivated or are you saying that any non white fan who is negative about Ince is also motivated by his colour ? Suggesting that white people might be racist/have racist views isn't racist - That negates the definition of racism I think it's a tricky one - There ARE racist football fans - And I'm sure there are racist Derby fans - Is racism (conscious or otherwise) a factor in some people's dislike of a player? Almost certainly - But it's not true of ALL people who dislike that player - And I don't think @ramsbottom was saying it is - There will be many different reasons for a person liking/disliking a player and but it would be naive to suggest race is never a motivator for anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 9 hours ago, ramsbottom said: I'm just pointing out the fact that our manager isn't a saint, and that the incident didn't affect his performances on the pitch, just like Cole, every one who talks about him seem to hold the same opinion, that he's a dedicated professional. I do believe some black players can be victimised no matter what they do. A player formerly of our parish Tom Ince copped a huge amount of flack due to, supposedly, being lazy & surly, despite the fact he was one of our most consistent performers while he was here. Just because he didn't run around the pitch beaming from ear to ear, people had the perception he had an attitude problem. I've said before, I have a friend who ran a shop and tom visited quite often and he said he was one of the most humble, down to earth lads he's ever met. Tom used to bring signed stuff in for him to auction off for his charity, including his boots. He even brought will hughes along on 2 occasions and he said he was a right arrogant twit ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 3 hours ago, ramsbottom said: That's my opinion, and I don't see how it's fanning any flames, I don't condone racism of any kind. I'm not saying all Derby fans are burning crosses in their front garden every other Sunday, but the lad was unfairly put in a bracket by some, and it's possible his skin colour was a factor. What a load of ill informed drivel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 2 hours ago, ramsbottom said: How could I, it's an opinion, I don't have any proof... At the start of all this I was merely pointing out that I believe some players, who also happen to be black, get a rougher ride from fans/press compared to other players, our newest left back included... But you've failed to explain why players such as Keogh, Lawrence and Butterfield get more abuse than say Wisdom and Josefzoon. You're 'opinion' that Ince got criticism purely on the basis that white people don't like black people is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: I think it's an unpopular opinion but could be the basis for SOME fans - Unconscious bias comes from a range of different factors However I would imagine for the majority of Ince haters it was as @angieram says and a body language thing - I think Martin suffered from the same thing - He was 'stroppy' when people didn't give him the ball but it was because he always wanted the ball (a positive trait in my mind) - And because Martin didn't run around as much he was derided for it - Unlike Marriott and Wilson who also through exasperation around when people don't pass to them but have very high work rates The Ince/Lawrence comparison is a good one for me - Both flair players who also have good workrate - But sometimes their workrate is applied in the wrong way because they aren't natural defenders Suggesting that white people might be racist/have racist views isn't racist - That negates the definition of racism I think it's a tricky one - There ARE racist football fans - And I'm sure there are racist Derby fans - Is racism (conscious or otherwise) a factor in some people's dislike of a player? Almost certainly - But it's not true of ALL people who dislike that player - And I don't think @ramsbottom was saying it is - There will be many different reasons for a person liking/disliking a player and but it would be naive to suggest race is never a motivator for anyone Disagree ,,, rams bottom was making the kind of offensive sweeping generalisations That racism is built on ,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 8 hours ago, erathirea said: Stop it ore you'll make me cross. You have a very mineral sense of humour, erathirea, somewhat ethereal. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Excited for Cole being here. Sorry to bring up my Tom Ince story again in defence of him,i’ll not go into the circumstances but suffice to say he didn’t have to do this for us and he was a lovely humble guy not at all arrogant. Can’t ever thank him enough and obviously there’s more to it than this picture...thanks Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: I think it's an unpopular opinion but could be the basis for SOME fans - Unconscious bias comes from a range of different factors However I would imagine for the majority of Ince haters it was as @angieram says and a body language thing - I think Martin suffered from the same thing - He was 'stroppy' when people didn't give him the ball but it was because he always wanted the ball (a positive trait in my mind) - And because Martin didn't run around as much he was derided for it - Unlike Marriott and Wilson who also through exasperation around when people don't pass to them but have very high work rates The Ince/Lawrence comparison is a good one for me - Both flair players who also have good workrate - But sometimes their workrate is applied in the wrong way because they aren't natural defenders Suggesting that white people might be racist/have racist views isn't racist - That negates the definition of racism I think it's a tricky one - There ARE racist football fans - And I'm sure there are racist Derby fans - Is racism (conscious or otherwise) a factor in some people's dislike of a player? Almost certainly - But it's not true of ALL people who dislike that player - And I don't think @ramsbottom was saying it is - There will be many different reasons for a person liking/disliking a player and but it would be naive to suggest race is never a motivator for anyone Exactly, I didn't say all Derby fans are racists, as well as saying that every fans criticism of him wasn't motivated by his skin colour, I was pointing out the fact that some black players are derided more than white players despite performing, making mistakes & having exactly the same attitude as their white counter parts. I don't see how that makes me a racist either. Fair enough of people want to completely dismiss it, but to think it doesn't shape some people's bias is naive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 23 minutes ago, Archied said: Disagree ,,, rams bottom was making the kind of offensive sweeping generalisations That racism is built on ,, No I wasn't, you've just took it that way. See my previous comment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: No I wasn't, you've just took it that way. See my previous comment... Suggest you read your original post again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, coneheadjohn said: Excited for Cole being here. Sorry to bring up my Tom Ince story again in defence of him,i’ll not go into the circumstances but suffice to say he didn’t have to do this for us and he was a lovely humble guy not at all arrogant. Can’t ever thank him enough and obviously there’s more to it than this picture...thanks Tom. I don't think anyone ever questioned Ince as a person. I don't remember any bad stories about his private life coming into the equation. I only remember questions over his attitude and work rate on the pitch (something I didn't agree with by the way). But I also see the same accusactions levelled at Tom Lawrence and I'm assuming this is nothing to do with the colour of his skin, so don't see how or why it's considered racism just because Ince is not white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, ramsbottom said: I was pointing out the fact that some black players are derided more than white players despite performing, making mistakes & having exactly the same attitude as their white counter parts. Yet I've given you examples of white players who come in for an equal amount, and in the main part, much more criticism than Ince, yet they are white. Does that not debunk your racism theory and show that it's down to football opinions rather than skin colour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premier ram Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 i would have Tom Ince back in a Derby shirt in a heartbeat , top bloke , good player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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