therealhantsram Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I'm going to put my head above the parapet here and say... I don't think there's actually much wrong with our defence. We ask our full-backs to push up and contribute to the attack. When you play that way, the two centre-mids take on defensive duties to form a kind of square of solidity to the base of the team. My view is that Keogh and Tomori have been doing a great job so far this season. The real problem lies in those two centre mids. We have tried all kinds of combinations of players in there. Probably the most effective combo has been Huddlestone and Bryson... but it hasn't truly clicked. I've come to the conclusion that this is the place we most need to upgrade, and a truly commanding midfielder would transform this team into top 2 material. So, there you go. Fire away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Don’t we play with 1 DM, creating a triangle, with 2 CM/AMs in front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: Don’t we play with 1 DM, creating a triangle, with 2 CM/AMs in front? Are you saying it's a formation problem, not a personnel problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: Are you saying it's a formation problem, not a personnel problem? I’m saying it’s not a square Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 We don't stop crosses very well (been a problem for years), and neither Keogh or Tomori are very good in the air - which is a pretty deadly combination. Add to that the fact Carson is pretty hopeless at coming off his line to relieve pressure from crosses, and we struggle further. Moving away from crosses, and we've struggled recently against teams with a big centre forward - Abraham, Hugill, Diedhiou just to name three - and teams have been able to go a bit longer against us with good success. However, it's our team defence that's more of a problem. Quite often, as soon as the ball is past the front three, there's nobody in midfield and the defence is suddenly under pressure. Very little protection or shielding going off at all. For that reason, I struggle to lump all the blame on the defenders. Maybe the answer is Evans and Huddlestone together, to give us slightly more stability and in turn allowing Mount to roam further from the left and into the middle thus helping Marriott more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topram Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The problem with the defence is simple, we don’t stop crosses and we let the strikers get in front of us which don’t add up we’ll together... all of our defenders are very good on the ball though which not many are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuitYourJibbaJivin Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 33 minutes ago, Topram said: The problem with the defence is simple, we don’t stop crosses and we let the strikers get in front of us which don’t add up we’ll together... all of our defenders are very good on the ball though which not many are We do stop some crosses but you’re not going to stop every cross coming into the box it’s impossible. The problem is every team has identified that were poor at defending crosses so we get peppered every game. I’d love to see some stats from full backs throughout the league on how many crosses prevented and how many successful crosses per game. The main problem is and always be that we don’t have a commanding centre half that will dominate in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I’ve got no issues with our CB pairing. Do the job of the keeper and DM half the time aswell as their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The defence needs a little bit of support, but the way we set up means they don't get it. If the other team is flying through the middle then usually Huddlestone/Evans will make a soft attempt to offer an extra body in the mix. If they go down the wings, bearing in mind that other teams also have attacking fullbacks, we find our wide defenders isolated against a winger with a couple of good outballs - I think that's the issue ultimately. If I was going to set up a team to play against Derby, I'd say double up on the wide positions and get crosses between the furthest CB & full back. The fullbacks get no support from the attacking wingers and/or centre midfielders and that gives an opportunity for those to create chances in that situation. The other thing we're bad at in defence is keeping our composure, when they're being pressed we tend to panic and look to the midfield, who ultimately don't offer much support, so if the other team layers their attacking pressing then their secondary are likely to win the ball. It all comes down to the desire of the midfield to want to defend. Huddlestone is more of a deep lying playmaker than a defensive midfielder; he doesn't shirk away from that side of the game but it's not what I'd class as one of his strengths. A good example, using the super genius software that Bielsa got labelled a god for, is that Huddlestone makes on average 1.1 tackles per game and 0.9 interceptions per game. Now, a true CDM that I like in the Championship is Ben Pearson at Preston - in comparison he makes 2.8 tackles per game and 1.6 interceptions. To annoy those Gorgeous George believers, and myself, if you compare it to his numbers whilst at Derby - 3.5 tackles & 2.1 interceptions (13/14) and 3 tackles & 2.1 interceptions (15/16). Those numbers is exactly what we need at the moment, but we don't really have anyone to provide that. All in all, the issue stems from the midfield wanting to defend as well as they attack. In fact, sometimes the defence needs to want to defend as well at it attacks too. The Norwich second goal, for example, where Tomori ended up being inline with Marriott whilst Norwich were breaking and deep in our half comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smyth_18 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Ambitious said: The defence needs a little bit of support, but the way we set up means they don't get it. If the other team is flying through the middle then usually Huddlestone/Evans will make a soft attempt to offer an extra body in the mix. If they go down the wings, bearing in mind that other teams also have attacking fullbacks, we find our wide defenders isolated against a winger with a couple of good outballs - I think that's the issue ultimately. If I was going to set up a team to play against Derby, I'd say double up on the wide positions and get crosses between the furthest CB & full back. The fullbacks get no support from the attacking wingers and/or centre midfielders and that gives an opportunity for those to create chances in that situation. The other thing we're bad at in defence is keeping our composure, when they're being pressed we tend to panic and look to the midfield, who ultimately don't offer much support, so if the other team layers their attacking pressing then their secondary are likely to win the ball. It all comes down to the desire of the midfield to want to defend. Huddlestone is more of a deep lying playmaker than a defensive midfielder; he doesn't shirk away from that side of the game but it's not what I'd class as one of his strengths. A good example, using the super genius software that Bielsa got labelled a good for, is that Huddlestone makes on average 1.1 tackles per game and 0.9 interceptions per game. Now, a true CDM that I like in the Championship is Ben Pearson at Preston - in comparison he makes 2.8 tackles per game and 1.6 interceptions. To annoy those Gorgeous George believers, and myself, if you compare it to his numbers whilst at Derby - 3.5 tackles & 2.1 interceptions (13/14) and 3 tackles & 2.1 interceptions (15/16). Those numbers is exactly what we need at the moment, but we don't really have anyone to provide that. All in all, the issue stems from the midfield wanting to defend as well as they attack. In fact, sometimes the defence needs to want to defend as well at it attacks too. The Norwich second goal, for example, where Tomori ended up being inline with Marriott whilst Norwich were breaking and deep in our half comes to mind. Well done, you've told the spies all of our weaknesses. I'm not paranoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwram1973 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Srg said: We don't stop crosses very well (been a problem for years), and neither Keogh or Tomori are very good in the air - which is a pretty deadly combination. Add to that the fact Carson is pretty hopeless at coming off his line to relieve pressure from crosses, and we struggle further. Moving away from crosses, and we've struggled recently against teams with a big centre forward - Abraham, Hugill, Diedhiou just to name three - and teams have been able to go a bit longer against us with good success. However, it's our team defence that's more of a problem. Quite often, as soon as the ball is past the front three, there's nobody in midfield and the defence is suddenly under pressure. Very little protection or shielding going off at all. For that reason, I struggle to lump all the blame on the defenders. Maybe the answer is Evans and Huddlestone together, to give us slightly more stability and in turn allowing Mount to roam further from the left and into the middle thus helping Marriott more. I like the idea of evans and hudds playing together. Carson Bogle Keogh Tomori Malone Hudds Evans Wilson Mount Waghorn Marriott Gives us good defensive cover if we lose the ball in the final 3rd and should help to stop the counter. In theory any road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I think the problem with some of the comments in this thread and those calling out individual defenders, is that we don't recognise that this is a situation we have deliberately accepted in order to play the type of attacking football that we do. Our defence will be vulnerable at times because of the type of football we play rather than because of the frailties of individual defenders. I found it interesting that Tomori had a really good game last night because we were playing a team that also wanted to play football. Yes, he is young and will make mistakes, but he will continue to try to play the way we're set up. That this might be a weakness against the Championship teams who go direct and have big men in the box to lump it up to is a fair point. So far, Lampard hasn't compromised his principles to address this (even when he had the players available to change the style, which he doesn’t at the moment). Will he do so in future if this proves to be our Achilles heel this season? I don't know. I'm on his side at the minute because our defence is 'good enough' and I love to see Bogle, Keogh, Tomori and Malone playing out from the back. I agree with @therealhantsram that the midfield is the place I would be looking to strengthen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smyth_18 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, angieram said: I think the problem with some of the comments in this thread and those calling out individual defenders, is that we don't recognise that this is a situation we have deliberately accepted in order to play the type of attacking football that we do. I don't believe we play particularly attacking football. Definitely not creative football at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawso Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 We just need Bogle to stop crosses coming in! Tomori did a good job of trying to get out and prevent a cross last night. Bogle just stands off and watches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topram Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said: We do stop some crosses but you’re not going to stop every cross coming into the box it’s impossible. The problem is every team has identified that were poor at defending crosses so we get peppered every game. I’d love to see some stats from full backs throughout the league on how many crosses prevented and how many successful crosses per game. The main problem is and always be that we don’t have a commanding centre half that will dominate in the air. No I understand that pal what I mean is by us letting those crosses in with us not being dominate in the box it leads to easy chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said: I don't believe we play particularly attacking football. Definitely not creative football at all. Interesting. I think we do. I think we did last night. I think we sometimes get bogged down by teams that sit in but we try to find ways to get around this. I also think the reason that players get jumped on for giving the ball away is because we try to play forward and sometimes the passes don't come off. What sort of style of play do you think we have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smyth_18 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, angieram said: Interesting. I think we do. I think we did last night. I think we sometimes get bogged down by teams that sit in but we try to find ways to get around this. I also think the reason that players get jumped on for giving the ball away is because we try to play forward and sometimes the passes don't come off. What sort of style of play do you think we have? To be honest i'm struggling to put my finger on it at the minute. I'm getting more frustrated than ever watching us play at the moment and I don't know why. I'd usually class myself as a more positive fan too! I do think we was a bit more creative last night than usual and Mount and Bryson's performance was a bit more acceptable than recent times. Apart from our disallowed goal i don't think we made much of a go of it until we were 2-0 down, despite ate the same time feeling we was probably the better team at 0-0. Very confused.. but that could just be personal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Srg said: We don't stop crosses very well (been a problem for years), and neither Keogh or Tomori are very good in the air - which is a pretty deadly combination. Add to that the fact Carson is pretty hopeless at coming off his line to relieve pressure from crosses, and we struggle further. Moving away from crosses, and we've struggled recently against teams with a big centre forward - Abraham, Hugill, Diedhiou just to name three - and teams have been able to go a bit longer against us with good success. However, it's our team defence that's more of a problem. Quite often, as soon as the ball is past the front three, there's nobody in midfield and the defence is suddenly under pressure. Very little protection or shielding going off at all. For that reason, I struggle to lump all the blame on the defenders. Maybe the answer is Evans and Huddlestone together, to give us slightly more stability and in turn allowing Mount to roam further from the left and into the middle thus helping Marriott more. Good analysis... and this is about the only combination that hasn't been tried so far. I too would like to see it given a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 On 17/01/2019 at 11:14, therealhantsram said: I'm going to put my head above the parapet here and say... I don't think there's actually much wrong with our defence. We ask our full-backs to push up and contribute to the attack. When you play that way, the two centre-mids take on defensive duties to form a kind of square of solidity to the base of the team. My view is that Keogh and Tomori have been doing a great job so far this season. The real problem lies in those two centre mids. We have tried all kinds of combinations of players in there. Probably the most effective combo has been Huddlestone and Bryson... but it hasn't truly clicked. I've come to the conclusion that this is the place we most need to upgrade, and a truly commanding midfielder would transform this team into top 2 material. So, there you go. Fire away! The recent performance against Leeds Utd highlights every thing wrong with our defence. Other than that we simply ship in too many goals to be a successful team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, europia said: The recent performance against Leeds Utd highlights every thing wrong with our defence. Other than that we simply ship in too many goals to be a successful team. See, I really don't think it was our defence. I think we lost the battle in midfield.. we couldn't get a foot in, they passed the ball beautifully through our lines like they weren't there... and then when we eventually got the ball, they were in out faces pressing so they had very little time. Didn't have quality or composure to make the one-touch passes that would be required to negate that approach... so we lost the ball and the defence was under pressure again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.