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Should we keep faith?


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7 hours ago, Curtains said:

Good point .

Still nothing like enough spent to get Top of the League. 

Stoke and the Gumps spent over £20 million more than us - how are they getting on? After Clement I'd have thought you'd know in spades that splashing the cash is no guarantee of success. As for the loans policy (not directed at you Curtains), if Frank can persuade the likes of Mount, Tomori and Wilson to join him at a Championship club in his very first gig, why would he not be able to improve on them were we to get promoted or at very least bring in players of an equal quality? Is Premiership football so much less appealing to top young prospects (or anyone else for that matter) than playing in the Championship? I seriously doubt it myself! 

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I think part of the problem is that every season recently there seems to be a team that finds the right formula out of nowhere and then flies past us. Brighton a couple of seasons ago, Wolves last season and now Leeds have come from a position of inferiority to us in terms of league position, squad etc to be miles better inside a season or two. That is something that gets me down - why is it we are always treading water while others get it right? 

Friday was depressing - outclassed from first minute to last and to be honest I just lost interest and turned the TV off. I try to be positive but its sometimes hard; some of FL's signing this summer seem just as poor as previous managers purchases- Evans, Jozefzoon for instance and that doesn't fill me with confidence that FL will get the mix right sooner rather than later. 

I'm not ready to write off this season and I've seen a lot worse apathy from Rams supporters over the years (I was one of only 8,000 at the BBG v Blackburn in September 1982) but I understand what the OP is getting at. 

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6 minutes ago, Jayram said:

...and now Leeds have come from a position of inferiority to us in terms of league position, squad etc to be miles better inside a season or two.

Thought L**ds have had a fairly decent squad for the last couple of seasons tbh. So for me it's a bit like Mac taking over from Clough Jr with Bielsa. Wolves got a top manager and loads of squad input. And didn't Brighton build on previous seasons?

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I've not considered Derby as much more than a hobby personally and like many of my interests my time for them comes and goes. I really like Frank but I'm not anywhere near as invested in him or his team as I was 2-3 years ago with SM, perhaps the same malaise is affecting others. These days I'll watch Derby whenever they are on TV and I will go to a few away games which are local to me if I can be bothered. And post on here from time-to-time, that is the extent of it for me and I am happy with it. Want the club to do well but ultimately I ain't that bothered. Not had a season ticket in years and wouldn't want to anymore, too much of a trek and not enough enjoyment to justify the trip/cost. If you don't have the same passion that is fine, the die hards will always be around. Just my take.

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Yes, we should absolutely keep the faith. Friday was tough in terms of playing the role of the uninvited party guest & being sent packing but Leeds are on the same crest as a wave we were in 2013/14 i.e. finally in contention after years of mediocrity.

By contrast, we're suffering from Groundhog Day & as a fanbase, are clearly fed up of coming close but never quite making it. The mood on here & at PP would be very different if we'd finished say 12th & 14th the last couple of seasons.

Sadly there are no quick fixes & our best bet of going up is stability - we have a guy in charge who has raised the profile of the club & looks competent despite his inexperience. Its our job as fans to encourage & support - I'm convinced that our time is coming soon.

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21 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes I agree with that.

Who that has been left behind, that makes Franks squads does not fit with how he wants to play?

After Wisdom I'm struggling.

Also, why did he spend so much money on Malone, Josefzoon and Waghorn if they are not good enough to fit into the team in the way he wants to play?

Why not spend that money on players that can come straight into the team as opposed to loaning players from Premier League teams knowing full well that they will be gone in the summer putting us back to square one? 

When Frank took over....

Whcih goalkeepers were top 6 Championship quality and comfortable passing out from the back, out of: Carson, Roos, Mitchell

Which defenders were top 6 Championship quality and comfortable in possession and at passing, out of: Bogle, Wisdom, Keogh, Davies, Pearce, Forsyth, Lowe

Which midfielders blah blah blah: Thorne, Huddlestone, Ledley, Bryson, Butterfield, Johnson, Elsnik, Hanson, Guy

Wingers...: Lawrence, Bennett, Thomas, Weimann, Anya

Forwards: Nugent, Vydra, Martin, Jerome, Blackman

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33 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

When Frank took over....

Whcih goalkeepers were top 6 Championship quality and comfortable passing out from the back, out of: Carson, Roos, Mitchell

Which defenders were top 6 Championship quality and comfortable in possession and at passing, out of: Bogle, Wisdom, Keogh, Davies, Pearce, Forsyth, Lowe

Which midfielders blah blah blah: Thorne, Huddlestone, Ledley, Bryson, Butterfield, Johnson, Elsnik, Hanson, Guy

Wingers...: Lawrence, Bennett, Thomas, Weimann, Anya

Forwards: Nugent, Vydra, Martin, Jerome, Blackman

Not entirely sure of your point here.

If you are saying we don't have enough players to play the way Frank wants to then maybe he should have tried a slow transition, or stuck to a system that suited the players he has at his disposal, knowing that at the end of this season we would be shipping the 'deadwood' out.

It still doesn't explain why some of the players you have highlighted as not fitting the system are still regular starters yet FLs own signings are warming the bench on a regular basis?

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2 minutes ago, David said:

We've been also-rans for the last five seasons.

I think it's starting to dawn we haven't really got what it takes this season. 

We knew that was going to be the case, and most supported the necessity for a time of transition, but some performances raised expectations that Frank was going to perform a miracle, and get us promoted with half a squad. 

It's clear now that we are too inconsistent for that, so we've got to be patient and save our hopes for next season, yet again. 

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1 minute ago, Lambchop said:

I think it's starting to dawn we haven't really got what it takes this season. 

We knew that was going to be the case, and most supported the necessity for a time of transition, but some performances raised expectations that Frank was going to perform a miracle, and get us promoted with half a squad. 

It's clear now that we are too inconsistent for that, so we've got to be patient and save our hopes for next season, yet again. 

If this was a transition season, I’d agree with you, but how can we be sure that this is a transition season when so many players contracts are up at the end of the season? Would it not make more sense to go for it this year, and if it doesn’t go well, rebuild properly in the summer?

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4 minutes ago, McLovin said:

If this was a transition season, I’d agree with you, but how can we be sure that this is a transition season when so many players contracts are up at the end of the season? Would it not make more sense to go for it this year, and if it doesn’t go well, rebuild properly in the summer?

I expect we are 'going for it' as best we can with what we've got. Maybe the apparent lack of progress on the pitch is causing some to doubt if Frank's up to the job, but we've just got to wait and see. 

Uncertainty isn't good for confidence, but I think it would be a mistake to fling money at a 'promotion push' this January. That is just reverting back to Rowett style short termism, which leads to too many overpaid, unwanted players. 

In the summer we have a big clear out, and Frank has a proper opportunity to develop the squad he wants. 

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1 minute ago, Lambchop said:

I expect we are 'going for it' as best we can with what we've got. Maybe the apparent lack of progress on the pitch is causing some to doubt if Frank's up to the job, but we've just got to wait and see. 

Uncertainty isn't good for confidence, but I think it would be a mistake to fling money at a 'promotion push' this January. That is just reverting back to Rowett style short termism, which leads to too many overpaid, unwanted players. 

In the summer we have a big clear out, and Frank has a proper opportunity to develop the squad he wants. 

Would next season not be a transition season too then? Not criticising you personally Lambchop but we’ve had a transition year ever since McClaren 1 went. I suspect that if we don’t get promotion this year or next year then Lampard will leave and then we will have yet another transition year for the new manager. History shows since clough jr that a manager doesn’t stay more than 2 seasons. As Jay said, there is a lot of frustration that we were so ahead of many other teams and seeing them overtake us.

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3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not entirely sure of your point here.

If you are saying we don't have enough players to play the way Frank wants to then maybe he should have tried a slow transition, or stuck to a system that suited the players he has at his disposal, knowing that at the end of this season we would be shipping the 'deadwood' out.

It still doesn't explain why some of the players you have highlighted as not fitting the system are still regular starters yet FLs own signings are warming the bench on a regular basis?

The highlighted one are the ones I felt suited Frank's system and are 'top 6 quality'. Butterflied is the only one who hasn't featured (believed to be financially motivated). Forsyth was a regular before getting injured. Huddlestone has played more games as the defensive mid than anyone else. I haven't highlighted the players I felt suited Frank's style, but aren't 'top 6 quality'

Wilson - A natural match winner. A must play if fit

Tomori - Played every game when fit

Mount - Played every game when fit

Holmes - Low risk signing. Taken a while to adjust to Championship football but has been a star performer in the last few games. One of the first names on the team sheet at the moment. Long term view of being a regular next season.

Evans - Injured early on in the season. Been a regular starter over recent weeks

Malone - Signed as we had doubts over Forsyth and Lowe staying injury free for the season. Allowed Lowe to gain experience of playing every week. Just returned to the match day squad after injury and is likely to start tomorrow.

Marriott - A top striker at this level. Wasn't fit when signed but has still played in 21 out of 27 league games this season.

Jozefzoon - Bought in to offer something different - essentially a squad player. For whatever reason he hasn't had a consistent run in the side and hasn't capitalised on injuries to our other wide men.

Waghorn - Bought in to be the main striker with Marriott slowly taking over as the season progressed. Struggled in the few games he played as the CF and has been usurped by Marriott a lot sooner than expected. Did well when on the RW. Potentially struggling with an injury.

6 out of 9 of his signings have been regular starters when fit.

 

Frank has a vision on his way of playing. Why waste a whole season training players to play one way this year, and then another next? That just doesn't make sense. You're really suggesting a slow transition from the garbage Rowett was treating us to?

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2 minutes ago, McLovin said:

As Jay said, there is a lot of frustration that we were so ahead of many other teams and seeing them overtake us.

I know, and I share that feeling, but we are suffering the consequences of chopping and changing managerial style every 18 months. Either that, or we're cursed.

It's very frustrating when we seem to have gone so far backwards compared to others since 13/14. Shouldn't have sacked Mac 1, basically. 

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1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Would next season not be a transition season too then? Not criticising you personally Lambchop but we’ve had a transition year ever since McClaren 1 went. I suspect that if we don’t get promotion this year or next year then Lampard will leave and then we will have yet another transition year for the new manager. History shows since clough jr that a manager doesn’t stay more than 2 seasons. As Jay said, there is a lot of frustration that we were so ahead of many other teams and seeing them overtake us.

I don't believe so - the opportunity to clear the decks means that Lampard will be operating with largely his own squad next season. Transition implies the process of moving in players & moving out players which should be concluded by this August i.e. start of the season. I also highly doubt Lampard would leave this season for missing out on promotion (that assumes we finish top 7/8 & don't plummet towards midtable)

You're right that the lack of progress is down to a constant change of managers - the amount of money spent on the squad & the fact we're no better off personnel wise since 2014 highlights this.

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