Has Lampard been as excellent as many people suggest?

[rynny]

12 hours ago, BobbyD said:

Its about how you perform against the good teams, not the lesser teams 

Not always. In 14/15 (iirc) we had won the most points, scored the most goals and had the best goal difference in the mini league for the top 8. It was against the "lesser" teams where we were let down. 

[brady1993]

On 13/01/2019 at 08:58, McLovin said:

No I’m not calling for Lampard out. I’m intrigued to see people’s views on Lampard as our manager so far. I keep hearing by many former players and pundits about what an excellent job Lampard has done here so far. I’m really struggling to see what has been so excellent about it? We are up and around the play offs like we have been for the last 5 or so years, yet under some of our previous managers, pundits have said that we should be there anyway with the money we have spent. Are they overrating Lampard? 

At this stage last season under the “defensive Rowett” we had scored:  44 goals, conceded 23,Goal difference of +  21, 52 points

In contast to this season under the “free flowing Lampard” we have scored 38 , conceded 34, goal difference of +4, 43 points, make your own mind up on those stats.

Of Lampard’s permanent signings, in my view, only Marriott(who was recommended by Terry) can be seen to be a success, although Holmes is slowly coming into his own and looks good.

In my opinion the season can be broken down as this(note performances not the actual results):

Some excellent performances: West Brom(a), Chelsea(a), Man Utd(a), Hull(cup a), Middlesbrough(first half a)

Some Good performances: Brentford(H), Norwich(a), Sheff Utd(H), Southampton(H)

A lot of average performances: Ipswich(H), Reading(A), Middlesbrough(h), Bristol City(h), sheff wed(a), Birmingham(h), Hull(a), preston(h), millwall(a).

A few terrible performances: Leeds(h+a), Sheff Utd(a), Stoke(a), Bolton(a), Rotherham(a), Aston villa(h)

 

As you can see, a lot of inconsistently. For me, I struggle to see what direction we are going with our footballing style. Lampard has spoken a lot about liking high intensity, pressing like under McClaren and to be fair, on the odd occasion when we do play that like West Brom away, we are irresistible at times. However, in the vast majority of the games, we often keep possession just for the sake of keeping possession akin to Clement and pass the ball at the back. Alternatively, if that doesn’t work, we resort to a lot of hoof ball to Marriott like in the last few weeks. Last point is that like last season with Vydra, we rely on a lot of individual quality to get goals like Wilson, which isn’t sustainable .

Overall, in my view, Lampard hasn’t been  very good or poor, probably somewhere in the middle but to go as far as excellent for getting us in the play offs so far? I’m struggling to see it.

I think you are over looking a fair few factors. 

Last year Rowett did everything to get promotion that season regardless of long term development. He signed a string of experienced aged players presumably on big contracts, employed a style of football designed to get short term results and made at best a cursory effort to actually fix some of the deeper set structural problems in the squad. All of that was to just get us over line. And even then we only go as far as we did off the back of a freak run of results. Personally I think we were very fortunate last season to be in the top 6 and the way performances were nosediving, I don't think we'd have got top 6 again had Rowett stayed.

Whereas my view Lampard seems to making a lot of decisions that might cost us a little in the short term but we will be better for it in the long term. I.e. very deliberately reducing the squad size and being very clear with who is and isn't wanted, giving young players chances and getting them far more integrated in the squad and beginning to mould the squad to a style of play based are high intensity pressing and attacking. It's my opinion that the squad Lampard took over probably wasn't going to top 6 as it was and probably not top 10. My expectation for the season was that Lampard would have us in the top 10 (with a hope of pushing for top 6) whilst reshaping the squad and set us down the path of playing better football.

The over cautious, over passing at times and the lumping up to Marriott are both symptoms of the same condition. That currently we are few players short of deploying our style of play consistently and we can come unstuck if an opponent is effective are targeting were we are weak. But at this stage in development it's not surprising and I can point to several examples where teams took a season or more to truly bed in the style of play. 

Has it been bumpy? Sure but if people had been paying attention at all then that should have been obvious as to was going to happen. Has Lampard made mistakes that have perhaps cost points? Of course he has but this is his first managerial gig and he's making decisions that I believe will pay off long term. 

By no means is Lampard some messianic figure but for my money he's a good manager doing a good job.

[Sexydadbod]

21 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I think you are over looking a fair few factors. 

Last year Rowett did everything to get promotion that season regardless of long term development. He signed a string of experienced aged players presumably on big contracts, employed a style of football designed to get short term results and made at best a cursory effort to actually fix some of the deeper set structural problems in the squad. All of that was to just get us over line. And even then we only go as far as we did off the back of a freak run of results. Personally I think we were very fortunate last season to be in the top 6 and the way performances were nosediving, I don't think we'd have got top 6 again had Rowett stayed.

Whereas my view Lampard seems to making a lot of decisions that might cost us a little in the short term but we will be better for it in the long term. I.e. very deliberately reducing the squad size and being very clear with who is and isn't wanted, giving young players chances and getting them far more integrated in the squad and beginning to mould the squad to a style of play based are high intensity pressing and attacking. It's my opinion that the squad Lampard took over probably wasn't going to top 6 as it was and probably not top 10. My expectation for the season was that Lampard would have us in the top 10 (with a hope of pushing for top 6) whilst reshaping the squad and set us down the path of playing better football.

The over cautious, over passing at times and the lumping up to Marriott are both symptoms of the same condition. That currently we are few players short of deploying our style of play consistently and we can come unstuck if an opponent is effective are targeting were we are weak. But at this stage in development it's not surprising and I can point to several examples where teams took a season or more to truly bed in the style of play. 

Has it been bumpy? Sure but if people had been paying attention at all then that should have been obvious as to was going to happen. Has Lampard made mistakes that have perhaps cost points? Of course he has but this is his first managerial gig and he's making decisions that I believe will pay off long term. 

By no means is Lampard some messianic figure but for my money he's a good manager doing a good job.

Some good points, I simply wanted to gather some views rather than to make it appear that I was criticising Lampard personally. Seemed a bit to me that some pundits were undermining the work some of our previous managers did in order to give praise to Lampard, I just wanted to balance things up.  However, as the person living in Leeds said, could Lampard be doing more in instructing the players to play how he wants to? He seems a little laid back at times on the sideline. According to the Leeds bloke, Leeds played hoof ball on occasions and Bielsa was livid and kept shouting at them until they played back to how he wanted them too. I’m still none the wiser as to what style Lampard wants us to play as, high pressing or patient build up play? Also like last season, we are relying heavily on individual quality to get us out of trouble like Wilson’s free kicks. Having a solid defence gets you out of the division first and foremost. Wolves played some brilliant stuff last season but Nuno focused on fixing the defence first.

I saw Man City play against Newcastle and even though they won, Guardiola humiliated many of the players for not playing how he liked to. Could it not be argued that Lampard is being a short sited like Rowett in that we are building the team around loan players who won’t be here next season?

[Sexydadbod]

My personal opinion is that this season is more of a “we want promotion” season and a last throw of the dice rather than a rebuild(by signing players like Waghorn, Malone or Jozefzoon who won’t be here long term) . If we do get promoted, that’s great, if we don’t then the rebuild starts properly in the summer with so many contracts being up and the loan players going back.

[RoyMac5]

35 minutes ago, McLovin said:

My personal opinion is that this season is more of a “we want promotion” season and a last throw of the dice rather than a rebuild(by signing players like Waghorn, Malone or Jozefzoon who won’t be here long term) . 

Define long term then? Can't seriously believe they were bought as a 'last throw of the dice'!

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Define long term then? Can't seriously believe they were bought as a 'last throw of the dice'!

2-3 years I consider the starting point for long term in a football context. They’re in their late twenties meaning there won’t be a lot of resale value

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, McLovin said:

2-3 years I consider the starting point for long term in a football context. They’re in their late twenties meaning there won’t be a lot of resale value

But bar Waghorn they didn't cost too much. Still how is that a last throw of the dice?

[Sexydadbod]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

But bar Waghorn they didn't cost too much. Still how is that a last throw of the dice?

But I imagine they will be a big wages. Would that money be better use on younger players with more resale value if this was a “true transition season”, the loan fees for Mount, Wilson and Tomori  I imagine would have been quite a lot too. 

11 of these players won’t be here next season due to contracts expiring or going back to their parent clubs, would that not mean that next season is a transition season as well as we’d have to buy players to replace them, let them settle in and get used to Lampard’s way of thinking? That’s to say we will have money to spend in the summer after taking huge hits with ffp.

[Ghost of Clough]

22 minutes ago, McLovin said:

But I imagine they will be a big wages. Would that money be better use on younger players with more resale value if this was a “true transition season”, the loan fees for Mount, Wilson and Tomori  I imagine would have been quite a lot too. 

11 of these players won’t be here next season due to contracts expiring or going back to their parent clubs, would that not mean that next season is a transition season as well as we’d have to buy players to replace them, let them settle in and get used to Lampard’s way of thinking? That’s to say we will have money to spend in the summer after taking huge hits with ffp.

Why can't it be a case of still wanting a team capable of competing for top 6 (or better), whilst still having a long term vision?

If it was the last throw of the dice, I doubt we'd be seeing Bennett, Lowe, Bogle, Bird in and around the team. I doubt we would have bought Evans and Holmes either.

[VulcanRam]

Lampard's doing fine. A bit of patience is required. 

The football has slipped back to being no better than last season, but I'd like to think he knows where he is going.

I'd like to think that the team is 5 or 6 players from his ideal 11 who can play the way he wants to.

I hope so anyway!

 

[RoyMac5]

35 minutes ago, McLovin said:

11 of these players won’t be here next season due to contracts expiring or going back to their parent clubs, would that not mean that next season is a transition season as well as we’d have to buy players to replace them, let them settle in and get used to Lampard’s way of thinking? 

How many of the 11 are in FLs long term plans? Squads change all the time. Not convinced. Every football manager knows it's about results and you don't necessarily get long in the job. Can't see Lampard viewing any season as a 'transition season' tbh.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How many of the 11 are in FLs long term plans? Squads change all the time. Not convinced. Every football manager knows it's about results and you don't necessarily get long in the job. Can't see Lampard viewing any season as a 'transition season' tbh.

You can split that 11 down into 3 groups.

Current Squad Members

Huddlestone - 15 apps. Most likely out of the bunch to extend his contract. Been a key cog in the team at times so far. 

Johnson - 14 apps. Hasn't featured since being suspended. Unlikely to get many games during the rest of the season unless we have an injury crisis

Nugent - 20 apps (10 as sub). Good impact sub but doubt we'll keep him next season

Bryson - 19 apps. Would be a useful squad player on vastly reduced terms. Likely to move north of the border.

Roos - Solid backup but that's about it unless he goes out on loan and impresses. Possible extension but should leave if he wants to play games.

Not needed now

Ledley - 4 apps. hasn't featured in the squad since returning from injury.

Olsson - Injured and definitely not part of the picture. Malone, Lowe will be preferred. Doubts over Forsyth being the player he was after another serious injury.

Butterfield - Definitely out of the picture

Loanees

Mount, Wilson, Tomori - All first choice when fit. Not part of the long term plans (as is normally the case with loans).

 

That's 8 squad players to potentially replace. 4/5 are regular starters.  Huddlestone, Bryson may be slowly fazed out as the season progresses. 

[SKRam]

177 FL PL goals showing now on Sky Sports PL. Of course this has nothing to do with his managerial skills and how we will perform under his leadership in his first managerial job...... But I don’t care, some of these goals are superb, enjoy our manager scoring some belters!!