UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS ..

[Ramslad1992]

Rome wasn’t built in a day, let’s enjoy the rollercoaster and see where we are in a couple of years then judge. Lots of outgoings and incomings to go before he gets what he wants.

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You seem to be moving the argument in a direction that represents nothing that I said.

I've not mentioned spending equal success.

I don't want you to accept my rationale, we all know by now that you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with your thoughts or may be even slightly negative.

I'm more than happy to read about my factual inaccuracies...fire away.

Fella don't take offence please! You give as good as you get and rightly or wrongly, I'd figured you're a man who'd not be cowed nor shy of lively debate. Sincere apologies if you feel I'm pressing you. Over a pint you'd know I'm not. As politely as I can, it wasn't you that started this train of thought and I accept that you were responding to another post. My stance, which is not one of blind devotion, is at least constant. I can and do accept qualified criticism - folks pay their money, they make their choices. Writing me off as someone who can't accept ANY criticism of the club, owners or players is not really fair. For all that I respect and like Frank, he's made some schoolboy errors, but as with even managers for whom I had no time, my biggest wish for our wonderful club is continuity. Find the right guy then give him 2 or 3 windows. Knee Jerk appointments followed by knee jerk sackings are IMHO, the reason we got into such a mess in the first place. 

Returning (calmly) to the thread, recent results and performances have been sub-par. I'm noy sure why you'd assume that I'd not see this. I’m not blind to our shortcomings but neither am I blind to the champagne footy we’ve also seen at times, albeit fleetingly. My view is that however this season pans out, we MUST give Frank and Jody another summer window. There’s still so much dead wood to shift and 20 odd games is not a fair sample, especially for a rookie manager. I tend not to call out players but don’t assume I don’t see our weaknesses. I do. Equally, I don’t take issue with any critical post that is qualified. It’s the blithe assertions, overt assumptions and outright bolarks that drive me to despair. 

As for factual inaccuracies, you yourself most often call out folk to support their arguments and rightly so, so do the same rules not apply across the board? In my defence, I also posted a link to the figures I quoted so I’m not arguing for the sake of it, as you seem to believe.  On a final note, when you say  ‘we all know by now that you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with your thoughts or may be even slightly negative’ who is the ‘we’ you refer to? On the one hand you infer that I’m intolerant (which I freely admit I am) but then you dismiss my opinions yourself and infer you speak for the forum. Seems a tad pot, kettle. Anyway, having clearly upset you, I’ll resist the urge to counter any of your opinions in future and apologies again if my bluntness offended.

[SlugForAButt]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

It's not an excuse. I admit we played badly, doesn't ignore the facts they cheated though.

How did we cheat? We did nothing illegal before the match, even Charlie Nicholas has put his head above the parapet to say this has been going on since his days. Nothing to see... move along.

And when we consider the BPF high boot, what about the blatant non offside penalty that was ruled out? This poo happens in football, and I understand that you feel it only happens to your team but it really doesn't.

I've been unexpectedly impressed with the honesty on this forum (better than some of our poo fansites, WACCOE anyone?), but mate you sound like a spoiled child. Always someone else's fault, it's Trump, Brexit, Global Warming, the Ref or Leeds cheating by doing nothing any different to most teams (which incidentally ISN'T breaking ANY rules) .

Do you understand that proper Leeds fans still actually revel in being called "Dirty Leeds"? We take it as a compliment. It's a throwback to when we were good, and God we were good, just like your other Nemesis under Clough! And as anyone with a brain knows, it's siege mentality that creates our unity, just ask that see you next Tuesday Alex Ferguson.

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, SlugForAButt said:

I've been unexpectedly impressed with the honesty on this forum (better than some of our poo fansites, WACCOE anyone?), but mate you sound like a spoiled child. Always someone else's fault, it's Trump, Brexit, Global Warming, the Ref or Leeds cheating by doing nothing any different to most teams (which incidentally ISN'T breaking ANY rules) .

I literally admitted we were poo multiple times, yet apparently I'm making excuses by openly stating we were bad. Doesn't change my belief that Leeds cheated and used underhand tactics, in fact it's you making excuses for your club using gamesmanship by saying ''it isn't breaking the rules'' as if that makes it morally right what your club did. Frankly though, I couldn't give a toss about Leeds, I don't care if you revel in it, it's not a compliment. Nor am I saying it only happens to my team, but if Derby had done what Leeds did I'd be slagging them off in equal measures. 

[G STAR RAM]

11 hours ago, 86 points said:

Fella don't take offence please! You give as good as you get and rightly or wrongly, I'd figured you're a man who'd not be cowed nor shy of lively debate. Sincere apologies if you feel I'm pressing you. Over a pint you'd know I'm not. As politely as I can, it wasn't you that started this train of thought and I accept that you were responding to another post. My stance, which is not one of blind devotion, is at least constant. I can and do accept qualified criticism - folks pay their money, they make their choices. Writing me off as someone who can't accept ANY criticism of the club, owners or players is not really fair. For all that I respect and like Frank, he's made some schoolboy errors, but as with even managers for whom I had no time, my biggest wish for our wonderful club is continuity. Find the right guy then give him 2 or 3 windows. Knee Jerk appointments followed by knee jerk sackings are IMHO, the reason we got into such a mess in the first place. 

Returning (calmly) to the thread, recent results and performances have been sub-par. I'm noy sure why you'd assume that I'd not see this. I’m not blind to our shortcomings but neither am I blind to the champagne footy we’ve also seen at times, albeit fleetingly. My view is that however this season pans out, we MUST give Frank and Jody another summer window. There’s still so much dead wood to shift and 20 odd games is not a fair sample, especially for a rookie manager. I tend not to call out players but don’t assume I don’t see our weaknesses. I do. Equally, I don’t take issue with any critical post that is qualified. It’s the blithe assertions, overt assumptions and outright bolarks that drive me to despair. 

As for factual inaccuracies, you yourself most often call out folk to support their arguments and rightly so, so do the same rules not apply across the board? In my defence, I also posted a link to the figures I quoted so I’m not arguing for the sake of it, as you seem to believe.  On a final note, when you say  ‘we all know by now that you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with your thoughts or may be even slightly negative’ who is the ‘we’ you refer to? On the one hand you infer that I’m intolerant (which I freely admit I am) but then you dismiss my opinions yourself and infer you speak for the forum. Seems a tad pot, kettle. Anyway, having clearly upset you, I’ll resist the urge to counter any of your opinions in future and apologies again if my bluntness offended.

I'll try and keep this brief.

Paragraph 1 - I'm not offended, no need for apologies. I also want continuity. Look back and you will find I was one of the few who even argued against sacking Pearson mid season.

Paragraph 2 - I've not even been debating performances with you on this thread so not sure why you keep bringing that into the equation.

Paragraph 3 - What were my factual inaccuracies? Yes you did post a link to transfmarket, a site which clearly guesses at transfer fees for some players and doesn't even bother guessing at others (no transfer fee for Malone or Evans). I said earlier in the thread that I read in an article we were the 3rd highest gross spenders, if that's a factual inaccuracy I am happy to be called out on it. Not sure where I infer that I speak for the whole forum? Anything I post is my opinion but I don't see the need to say that in every single post. I will from time to time point out what a lot of posts have said but I've quite clearly NEVER inferred that I speak on behalf of the whole forum, although once again if you provide evidence of this I'm more than happy to be called out on it and will issue an apology to all of the people that I have incorrectly spoken on behalf of.

 

 

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Paragraph 3 - What were my factual inaccuracies? Yes you did post a link to transfmarket, a site which clearly guesses at transfer fees for some players and doesn't even bother guessing at others (no transfer fee for Malone or Evans). I said earlier in the thread that I read in an article we were the 3rd highest gross spenders, if that's a factual inaccuracy I am happy to be called out on it. 

 

 

Apologies if you have already, however could you post the link to the said article so we can read it, might help us. Thanks.

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Apologies if you have already, however could you post the link to the said article so we can read it, might help us. Thanks.

Will probably stink like bs but cannot remember which paper I read it in, it was an article about GRs sacking.

Not sure why it will help you just quoting what it said. Believe it or not, your perogative.

If it helps the figures quoted were Stoke circa £50m, Forest  £30 and Derby  £15m

[AdamRam]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Will probably stink like bs but cannot remember which paper I read it in, it was an article about GRs sacking.

Not sure why it will help you just quoting what it said. Believe it or not, your perogative.

If it helps the figures quoted were Stoke circa £50m, Forest  £30 and Derby  £15m

Just with you mentioning factual inaccuracy, Boro for example are not within your figures yet have spent c20m, so I’d question the accuracy of the figures you mention. However without showing us the source, there might be something that we are missing within their assumptions.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Just with you mentioning factual inaccuracy, Boro for example are not within your figures yet have spent c20m, so I’d question the accuracy of the figures you mention. However without showing us the source, there might be something that we are missing within their assumptions.

All it quoted was spending, no breakdowns,  not sure how accurate their figures are but no reason to think you Boro estimate is any more reliable than theirs.

If Derby are not 3rd highest spenders that is not a factual inaccuracy on my part, I was just quoting an article I read. Like all football fans I have no idea what teams spend. If the artIcle I quoted was wrong so be it.

So let's assume Boro spent more than Derby does that make is 4th highest spenders or do you have access to other clubs records that show we were lower than that? 

Either way, if we are 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th say, it doesn't really affect the point I was making does it?

[AdamRam]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

All it quoted was spending, no breakdowns,  not sure how accurate their figures are but no reason to think you Boro estimate is any more reliable than theirs.

If Derby are not 3rd highest spenders that is not a factual inaccuracy on my part, I was just quoting an article I read. Like all football fans I have no idea what teams spend. If the artIcle I quoted was wrong so be it.

So let's assume Boro spent more than Derby does that make is 4th highest spenders or do you have access to other clubs records that show we were lower than that? 

Either way, if we are 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th say, it doesn't really affect the point I was making does it?

Well you said you were happy to be called out in factual inaccuracies, yet I feel you may not quite be the case. You quote an article that you have no link to, you question my boro estimate even though as the previous poster has given you a link that at least shows where our information is coming from.

it you are saying that FL has had funds to spend I’d agree, however your original comment was “To say his hands have been financially tied is incorrect”, and to that is what we are disagreeing with.

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

Well you said you were happy to be called out in factual inaccuracies, yet I feel you may not quite be the case. You quote an article that you have no link to, you question my boro estimate even though as the previous poster has given you a link that at least shows where our information is coming from.

it you are saying that FL has had funds to spend I’d agree, however your original comment was “To say his hands have been financially tied is incorrect”, and to that is what we are disagreeing with.

Yes I am happy to be called out on factual inaccuracies, if you can back it up with something worthwhile.

If you use Transfermrkt to try and prove me wrong I will laugh at it. Malone and Evans transfer fees are listed as ? so please forgive me for not taking that site too seriously.

Ok, I will retract my original statement regarding FL. He does have his hands tied but on this basis so does every other manager in this division. I will change my statement to FLs hands have been tied more loosely than a large percentage of managers in this division. 

Still makes very little difference to the point I was making.

[Ghost of Clough]

17 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

That's fair comment.

I certainly won't be judging him on the basis of him having his hands tied though. 

That would be like comparing him to Nigel Clough when in reality the conditions in which they operated are pretty much polar opposites.

You're right...

 

Nigel Clough:

Jan 09 £0.54m

09/10 -£1.37m

10/11 +£0.26m

11/12 +£2.3m

12/13 +£1.13m

Summer 13 -£0.92m

Average = £0.39m

 

Frank:

18/19 -£1.41m

 

Nigel spent more than he received. Frank received more than he spent. Both have had to cut the wage bill. Nigel reportedly had more money to spend but opted not to.

 

Figures are from Transfermarkt

[AdamRam]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes I am happy to be called out on factual inaccuracies, if you can back it up with something worthwhile.

If you use Transfermrkt to try and prove me wrong I will laugh at it. Malone and Evans transfer fees are listed as ? so please forgive me for not taking that site too seriously.

Ok, I will retract my original statement regarding FL. He does have his hands tied but on this basis so does every other manager in this division. I will change my statement to FLs hands have been tied more loosely than a large percentage of managers in this division. 

Still makes very little difference to the point I was making.

The same way we laugh at you quoting an article that you can’t even supply a link to ?

And makes a lot of difference, because this is your assumption, it may be true it may not but your original reply was FL having limited funds was a fallacy, something I’d completely disagree on. Purely based upon our FFP, and given the noises coming out the club, NET spend being only c1m - 3m, and previous transfer spends by our managers.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there.

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You're right...

 

Nigel Clough:

Jan 09 £0.54m

09/10 -£1.37m

10/11 +£0.26m

11/12 +£2.3m

12/13 +£1.13m

Summer 13 -£0.92m

Average = £0.39m

 

Frank:

18/19 -£1.41m

 

Nigel spent more than he received. Frank received more than he spent. Both have had to cut the wage bill. Nigel reportedly had more money to spend but opted not to.

Cloughs highest transfer fee in 5 years £1m?

Frank's highest transfer fee within 5 weeks £5m.

Highest wage that Clough paid under contracts he handed out £10k?

Highest wage that Lampard paid under contracts he handed out?

Cloughs incomings were mainly generated from players that he purchased.

Lampards  £12m? incomings were from players from previous regimes that many deemed surplus to requirements anyway.

No sane person would compare the conditions that Clough operated in to the ones Lampard enjoys.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

The same way we laugh at you quoting an article that you can’t even supply a link to ?

And makes a lot of difference, because this is your assumption, it may be true it may not but your original reply was FL having limited funds was a fallacy, something I’d completely disagree on. Purely based upon our FFP, and given the noises coming out the club, NET spend being only c1m - 3m, and previous transfer spends by our managers.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there.

Ok. Good.

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Cloughs highest transfer fee in 5 years £1m?

Frank's highest transfer fee within 5 weeks £5m.

Highest wage that Clough paid under contracts he handed out £10k?

Highest wage that Lampard paid under contracts he handed out?

Cloughs incomings were mainly generated from players that he purchased.

Lampards  £12m? incomings were from players from previous regimes that many deemed surplus to requirements anyway.

No sane person would compare the conditions that Clough operated in to the ones Lampard enjoys.

Times have changed. What we paid for Sammon is proportionally similar to what we paid for Waghorn. Average league transfer fees when Nigel and Frank have been at the club....

Clough:

Jan 09 £258k

09/10 £418k

10/11 £245k

11/12 £298k

12/13 £356k

Summer 13 £194k

 

Frank:

18/19 £1.33m

[SlugForAButt]

On 13/01/2019 at 22:05, Andicis said:

I literally admitted we were poo multiple times, yet apparently I'm making excuses by openly stating we were bad. Doesn't change my belief that Leeds cheated and used underhand tactics, in fact it's you making excuses for your club using gamesmanship by saying ''it isn't breaking the rules'' as if that makes it morally right what your club did. Frankly though, I couldn't give a toss about Leeds, I don't care if you revel in it, it's not a compliment. Nor am I saying it only happens to my team, but if Derby had done what Leeds did I'd be slagging them off in equal measures. 

And now you're saying "morally right"? Really?

What the fck is morally right about football these days, whether it's the players cheating their arses off over 90 minutes conning the ref, clubs tapping up other players, approaching 5 yr old kids, players refusing to play because they want a move even though they're under contract, clubs relocating kids so they can sign them, and the list goes on forever. And you are sitting here right now telling me that, even though this isn't illegal in football, that it's a problem?

You need to take your rose tinted specs off mate. If you listened to Bielsa tonight on TalkSport with his statement, you'd realise that it's only luddites like you  that think this doesn't go on every day. And with the greatest respect, I'd believe Bielsa (who's been honest about this) who knows football inside out over Lampard and the journos every day of the week.

Leeds have done nothing illegal under the laws of football, so let's see what punishment we get shall we?

 

EDIT: And just so you know, I always despised on of the "supposedly" Leeds favourites Kewell purely because he was a diving poo, I don't have much time for Alioski for the same reason. So, NO I see the poo in my own team as well and I slag them off for it all the time with my mates. Are we that different? I used to slag Kewell off as he was on the ball 20 ft away from me for ducks sake. But really, you've got to see that the English game is not what it was 30 years ago, there is no honour now, money has taken care of that.

Anyway, good luck for the rest of the season, I like Lampard.

[SlugForAButt]

On 13/01/2019 at 18:17, Andicis said:

 

"just ask that see you next Tuesday Alex Ferguson"

 

Not sure what happened there with predictive text, but my point stands, siege mentality works great, so keep moaning about us, we love it. That's probably one of the reasons we still get a good atmosphere.

Also, when I call Clough your "nemesis", he took another local provincial team and made them miles better than you ever were, Christ that must hurt! I know you reckon you love him, but you must also sneakily hate him for doing a better job with your local rivals. 

Anyway, Bielsa put it perfectly. watching other teams and making dossiers is standard procedure.

And lastly, well done for beating Southampton, beating any sort of Premier League team (except Hudds and Fulham) is an achievement. Your lot showed some mettle!

[RamNut]

6 minutes ago, SlugForAButt said:

"just ask that see you next Tuesday Alex Ferguson"

 

Not sure what happened there with predictive text, but my point stands, siege mentality works great, so keep moaning about us, we love it. That's probably one of the reasons we still get a good atmosphere.

Also, when I call Clough your "nemesis", he took another local provincial team and made them miles better than you ever were, Christ that must hurt! I know you reckon you love him, but you must also sneakily hate him for doing a better job with your local rivals. 

Anyway, Bielsa put it perfectly. It's standard procedure.

And lastly, well done for beating Southampton, beating any sort of Premier League team (except Hudds and Fulham) is an achievement. Your lot showed some mettle!

Tut tut

watch the videos mate. He says his Derby team were better than the Forest team that won the european cup twice!

[SlugForAButt]

30 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Tut tut

watch the videos mate. He says his Derby team were better than the Forest team that won the european cup twice!

I'm glad you see it like that, but the reality is that Forest are one of only a handful of teams to retain the European cup. Let's not forget the FA cups and stuff too, better in what way?

Clough was a revelation at Derby and later Forest, but honestly... the WOW factor was at Forest. No one can diminish his achievements, I think the guy was a genius in a time where titles weren't only for the richest and managerial skill mattered (still love him admitting he didn't want to be the first to sign a 1m pound player, so he signed Francis for £999999.99p even though that was massive money). Shitheads like Mourinho can only dream of being as good as Shankly, Clough or Revie. Managers that changed the game.

No doubt about it, Forest were what Derby could have become if your chairman hadn't pissed him off.