UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS ..

[Gone]

3 hours ago, Ram8 said:

until Lampard brings back Chris Martin to partner him,

Would love this, Martin and Marriott ?

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Afraid the thing about Lampard having 'limited funds' is a fallacy, he had the 3rd highest spend on players in the division during the summer transfer window plus he has access to the top clubs youngsters based on what he achieved during his playing career.

Where are you getting those figures from?  2018/19 spend by club shows that Stoke, Forest, Leeds, Reading, Wigan, Birmingham, Hull, Blackburn and Bolton all had a higher net spend than Derby, indeed Stoke exceeded our net spend by £22 million and Forest by £27 million. We had the 5th biggest expenditure across the period but only the 10th highest net spend. Frank's net figure ranges from a spend of @£1 million to a profit of over £1.5 million depending on whose numbers one believes to be most accurate. I believe Mel was quoted as saying he thought the final post Summer figure was under £1 million too. In so much, I can't really see where the 'fallacy' lies.

[SlugForAButt]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

It's almost like Leeds used underhand, cheating tactics to get into our heads before the game even began. We were crap, but I'm sure the gamesmanship from Bielsa was part of it.

 

Clown? Behave, he had a bad game. He's a good young player.

Give over mate, this sort of crap is standard practice all round the world and Bielsa said as much. It's a right load of old flannel that barely merits a mention, which is exactly what would have happened had it been any other Championship club. In just the same way Leeds were docked 15 points under insolvency rules when other clubs weren't I expect nothing less than being demoted 3 divisions, a season behind closed doors, a 200 million pound fine and being legally bound to let Jimmy Crankie govern the clubs finances until we go bust.  And if your players are that fragile... you've got bigger problems.

And as for Lowe, I was asking because I genuinely didn't know anything about him. He was caught out so many times I assumed it wasn't his natural position.

[Andicis]

3 hours ago, SlugForAButt said:

I expect nothing less than being demoted 3 divisions, a season behind closed doors, a 200 million pound fine and being legally bound to let Jimmy Crankie govern the clubs finances until we go bust.

Imagine playing the victim card when it's your club who has been the one cheating and using utter shithouse tactics. 

[The Key Club King]

6 hours ago, 86 points said:

Where are you getting those figures from?  2018/19 spend by club shows that Stoke, Forest, Leeds, Reading, Wigan, Birmingham, Hull, Blackburn and Bolton all had a higher net spend than Derby, indeed Stoke exceeded our net spend by £22 million and Forest by £27 million. We had the 5th biggest expenditure across the period but only the 10th highest net spend. Frank's net figure ranges from a spend of @£1 million to a profit of over £1.5 million depending on whose numbers one believes to be most accurate. I believe Mel was quoted as saying he thought the final post Summer figure was under £1 million too. In so much, I can't really see where the 'fallacy' lies.

Net spending figures tell a story but wage bills contribute 8 or 9 times more to overall expenditure than net transfer spending and give a far better indication of relative success. Derby's wage bill in the past four years has been consistently one of the highest in the Championship outside of the recently relegated Premier League clubs. Wages will never be recouped but transfer fees can be if the right players are bought and is why most clubs in the Championship actually gain money through transfer activity. 

The high wage bill is obviously not Frank Lampard's fault but with a small amount of tinkering with the value he has in the squad (as he has done by selling Vydra, buying Marriott, Josefzoon, Waghorn and the loanees) then a top six finish would still be about expected through total expenditure. Unfortunately until the dead wood of Anya, Thorne, Martin, Butterfield, Wisdom and Johnson are of the books and we are clear of the FFP consequences of this, then we will continue to have problems and it is Frank's job to somehow manage this. 

In terms of the OPs unrealistic expectations, we are probably exactly where we should be from money spent.  

[Sith Happens]

5 hours ago, SlugForAButt said:

Give over mate, this sort of crap is standard practice all round the world and Bielsa said as much. It's a right load of old flannel that barely merits a mention, which is exactly what would have happened had it been any other Championship club. In just the same way Leeds were docked 15 points under insolvency rules when other clubs weren't I expect nothing less than being demoted 3 divisions, a season behind closed doors, a 200 million pound fine and being legally bound to let Jimmy Crankie govern the clubs finances until we go bust.  And if your players are that fragile... you've got bigger problems.

And as for Lowe, I was asking because I genuinely didn't know anything about him. He was caught out so many times I assumed it wasn't his natural position.

It is always the way, to be fair if it was the other way round your lot would be going mad and we would be defending it.

We will see how fairly Leeds are treated, there should be some response from the EFL/FA even if its  stern rap on the knuckles and a dont do it again. What action they take against your keeper will be an indication too of how the EFL/FA treat clubs. He should receive a decent ban for his actions but I doubt he will.

 

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, 86 points said:

Where are you getting those figures from?  2018/19 spend by club shows that Stoke, Forest, Leeds, Reading, Wigan, Birmingham, Hull, Blackburn and Bolton all had a higher net spend than Derby, indeed Stoke exceeded our net spend by £22 million and Forest by £27 million. We had the 5th biggest expenditure across the period but only the 10th highest net spend. Frank's net figure ranges from a spend of @£1 million to a profit of over £1.5 million depending on whose numbers one believes to be most accurate. I believe Mel was quoted as saying he thought the final post Summer figure was under £1 million too. In so much, I can't really see where the 'fallacy' lies.

I read somewhere the other day that only Stoke and Forest had spent more on players this season than us.

To me net spend is not really relevant to the point being made.

FL has sold Vydra, who was not one of his signings, to fund buying his own players, he can't take any credit for funds received for the sale of Vydra.

To say his hands have been financially tied is incorrect.

 

[sonofmidnight]

I'm not downbeat at all. What did we really expect from a rookie manager and a much much younger team than last year. It is so important that we stick together and support our team. As fans we are quiet for large spells of the game and I'm as guilty as anyone. Going back to our glory days at the BBG under Brian I remember coming home hoarse from all the singing, shouting etc. Thought the Leeds fans were magnificent and it can't have helped our players confidence at all. Let's really make our stadium rock and intimidate the opposition. COYR

[LeedsCityRam]

Am over Friday now - we were garbage but it's probably done some good in lowering the overall expectations. 

Seems to becoming a regular habit in recent seasons though - we start off targeting a playoff spot, we then either hit 2nd or get some impressive results & all of a sudden, we're expected to challenge for the top and every negative result is an indication of increasing crisis. This then translates to anxiousness at home & fans getting on players' backs. Its like the 'sin' of not being able to get over the line since 2014 is revisited on the team, irrespective of the circumstances. Rowett noticed it & Lampard's noticed it (as per his post-match Norwich comments). 

Some people quickly forget that Lampard is still a starter in terms of management. Yes, we've had some cracking results but one-offs are much easier to achieve than a consistent team unit performing week in, week out. He's done everything that could have expected of him to date. The big clear out has started & plans will be in place to get this team competing for top 2 - this will be next season at the earliest though.

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I read somewhere the other day that only Stoke and Forest had spent more on players this season than us.

To me net spend is not really relevant to the point being made.

FL has sold Vydra, who was not one of his signings, to fund buying his own players, he can't take any credit for funds received for the sale of Vydra.

To say his hands have been financially tied is incorrect.

 

I read Villa, Boro and West Brom have also a net spend more than us. He also has to replace the top scorer he sold to generate funds, I don’t think he is taking the credit but it’s a fact.

To also take this window in isolation is not fair, he is having to replace aging players brought in by previous players who are not good enough, other managers have had several windows to do this. Finally as for not having his hands tied financially, are you saying that he hasn’t got to work within a wage budget that only allows him to bring certain players in, have you read this somewhere as well, an assumption or ITK?

 

[King Kevin]

13 hours ago, Ram8 said:

Trying to think why the mood after the Leeds defeat is so downbeat ..

Ok, we were dreadful on the night, and lost badly to one of our bitterest rivals,  but I have a feeling it adds up to more than that, and I believe that some of the early optimistic judgements made about certain players have a lot to do with it .. 

Scott Carson .. early in the season he was regularly being rated as one of our top three keepers ever. This reputation has been severely tested after a number of schoolboy errors, and the realisation that his distribution skills need drastic improvement ..

Jayden Bogle .. after his first few games he was being mentioned as a future England international, and a saleable asset in the Will Hughes class. He has since been downgraded to a promising Academy product, with much still to learn .. 

Fikayo Tomori .. has more pace than our other centre backs, but has been frequently exposed when tight marking required .. 

Craig Bryson .. after his season in the wilderness with Cardiff, he was hailed as the ‘Returning Messiah’, a view that has now lost total credibility with the realisation that he contributes nothing in midfield anymore, and is obviously, and sadly, past his sell by date .. 

George Evans .. touted as the natural successor to Tom Huddlestone, a view painfully exposed last night, with the realisation that, without Tom in the team, our creativity and composure are seriously lacking against a team as good as Leeds ..

Mason Mount .. could do no wrong early in the season, our very own ‘boy wonder’ and creative midfield dynamo, the future fulcrum of the England national team. Since been ‘missing’ in many games where the action has passed him by, and revealed his callow youth and inexperience .. 

David Nugent .. supposedly our ‘super sub’ for an injection of enthusiastic running late in a game, but fruitless chasing (albeit with a smile on his face) doesn’t add up to a productive contribution anymore; another one way past his sell by date I’m afraid ..

 Tom Lawrence .. supposedly his ‘breakthrough season’, when his latent talent emerges to reveal his consistently creative contributions to our forward play. Not happened has it, just as frustrating as ever .. 

Jack Marriott .. enormous promise as a natural goalscorer, but due to being isolated up front, without support, is increasingly cutting a frustrated figure; and until Lampard brings back Chris Martin to partner him, will remain so ..

Martin Waghorn .. was going to be Chris Martin’s (£5 million pound) replacement, but been nothing more than an occasional sub, like Marriott, not really his fault ..

Frank Lampard .. I’m afraid has to take responsibility for some of the above, in his inconsistent selections, and the resultant lack of continuity and consistency in our performances, but hopefully will learn from his mistakes in time to get us ‘through the gate’ this time !! 

 

 

With regard to Nugent it's a sad fact that whilst I agree with you we were much better up front in the second half with him playing.

Nugent showed his experience on Friday he is a clever player as well as having a great work rate for an old un. Pity he's not 5 years younger.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I read somewhere the other day that only Stoke and Forest had spent more on players this season than us.

To me net spend is not really relevant to the point being made.

FL has sold Vydra, who was not one of his signings, to fund buying his own players, he can't take any credit for funds received for the sale of Vydra.

To say his hands have been financially tied is incorrect.

 

Of course net spend is relevant. You've implied only 3 managers had more funds made available and that's simply not an accurate reflection of the facts. The figure is nearer 10 in real terms. Lampard has also been brought into a scenario where his squad was 'aged and bloated' as so many on here have pointed out and he therefore has had to try and trim the squad numbers at the same time as adopting a footballing style that more fans feel is easy on the eye. Nobody is 'crediting' him for selling Vydra either so I really don't understand that comment. The facts are simple and straightforward - in net terms, he's spent absolutely nothing, he's a rookie manager and we sit 6th in the division. If, as both he and Mel Morris both said themselves at the time, he was afforded only a very modest net spend (@£1 million, if that) without selling players, then clearly restrictions were in place and rightly so given our wage bill. As for whether his signings do him any credit, time will tell. As a point of reference...                                                                                            https://www.transfermarkt.com/derby-county/transfers/verein/22

[G STAR RAM]

15 minutes ago, 86 points said:

Of course net spend is relevant. You've implied only 3 managers had more funds made available and that's simply not an accurate reflection of the facts. The figure is nearer 10 in real terms. Lampard has also been brought into a scenario where his squad was 'aged and bloated' as so many on here have pointed out and he therefore has had to try and trim the squad numbers at the same time as adopting a footballing style that more fans feel is easy on the eye. Nobody is 'crediting' him for selling Vydra either so I really don't understand that comment. The facts are simple and straightforward - in net terms, he's spent absolutely nothing, he's a rookie manager and we sit 6th in the division. If, as both he and Mel Morris both said themselves at the time, he was afforded only a very modest net spend (@£1 million, if that) without selling players, then clearly restrictions were in place and rightly so given our wage bill. As for whether his signings do him any credit, time will tell. As a point of reference...                                                                                            https://www.transfermarkt.com/derby-county/transfers/verein/22

So if you have a house worth  £250k that you inherited, then move to a house worth £300k, is your new house only worth  £50k?

Think it's pretty clear that Vydra was going to leave even before FL joined so don't see how he is relevant.

If Vydra had been sold prior to him arriving and we discount the £2m from Rowett and extra money received from Ince,  all which had nothing to do with FL, then it's quite clear he has had decent funds to spend.

The wage bill of course is a different matter but I would hardly see adding Malone, Holmes, Josefzoon, Wilson, Mount and Waghorn to the wage bill as having his hands tied.

I imagine there are at least 15 managers in this division that would love having their hands tied if that meant regularly having £10m worth of signings sat on their bench. 

This is not a criticism of FL by the way, just trying to dispel the myth that we have lived like paupers this season.

[G STAR RAM]

59 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

I read Villa, Boro and West Brom have also a net spend more than us. He also has to replace the top scorer he sold to generate funds, I don’t think he is taking the credit but it’s a fact.

To also take this window in isolation is not fair, he is having to replace aging players brought in by previous players who are not good enough, other managers have had several windows to do this. Finally as for not having his hands tied financially, are you saying that he hasn’t got to work within a wage budget that only allows him to bring certain players in, have you read this somewhere as well, an assumption or ITK?

I'd assume that every manager in the division has a wage budget.

Imagine our budget will be up there amongst the highest.

[Carnero]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So if you have a house worth  £250k that you inherited, then move to a house worth £300k, is your new house only worth  £50k?

No but it means that your new house is only considered £50k "better" than your old house.

We came 6th last season. We invested a net of £0 and we're currently 6th again. Frank is doing just fine.

[Remy the hare]

13 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

See this is where I get confused.

Everyone pretty much agreed that this was to be a season of transition, big earners to be shipped out and average age of the squad to be lowered considerably. 

Then after literally 4 good performances out of 20, the goalposts get moved.

Now for me the notion of a whole season of transition for me is just a myth. There are way too many unknown and variables for there to be such a thing.

Sure I'm happy to go along with the ride and see where we end up but how can you seriously call a season of transition when you have so many players and managerial changes?

Like you I am on board for the ride wherever this may land us and i will make no noises if we end up 7th or worst. I am all for giving a manager time to build something. However if an opportunity is there sometime the goalposts do change especially when you look how circumstances are shaping up.

My first sport is cycling. Back in 2005 Lance Armstrong retired after (at that time we all thought) a glittering career. Now despite what you think if him, he watched the next 2 seasons of pro grand tour cycling and thought "WTF? the standard is a mess and so weak, I could beat these muppets". So he came out of retirement in 2009 as a 37 year old (drug free?) and came 3rd in that years TDF.

Now the point i am making is whether drug free or not Armstrong came 3rd he was 12 years older than the winner but he saw a opportunity and grabbed it.

Now in the end Armstrong's comeback was his downfall but that's another story. This championship season is the same for me what Armstrong saw during the 2007/2008 tour de frances, it's a mess and the standard is poor (including us). So lets take that risk, surely Frank can network a couple of big loans. He's Frank Lampard for god sake!

Now I am sure behind the scenes people are working away to bring players in, but we've been in this position at this time of the year 6 years in a row now and been risk-averse. I'm sick of being the gallant lose.....?

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So if you have a house worth  £250k that you inherited, then move to a house worth £300k, is your new house only worth  £50k?

Think it's pretty clear that Vydra was going to leave even before FL joined so don't see how he is relevant.

If Vydra had been sold prior to him arriving and we discount the £2m from Rowett and extra money received from Ince,  all which had nothing to do with FL, then it's quite clear he has had decent funds to spend.

The wage bill of course is a different matter but I would hardly see adding Malone, Holmes, Josefzoon, Wilson, Mount and Waghorn to the wage bill as having his hands tied.

I imagine there are at least 15 managers in this division that would love having their hands tied if that meant regularly having £10m worth of signings sat on their bench. 

This is not a criticism of FL by the way, just trying to dispel the myth that we have lived like paupers this season.

Indeed, I'm sure Rowett and Bruce revelled in their experiences at Stoke and Villa. To hear you talk one would think all a team has to do is spend a few quid and success will inevitably follow. I'm sure too that many managers would love to buy more players - the question is would the management skills then guarantee success? Your house analogy is ridiculous by the way. Perhaps you should have included some commentary on rotten woodwork in the loft space or pointing needing looking at. What about subsidence and an urgent need for major structural upgrades? And I'm sure all businesses simply look at their overall expenditure with no regard for net spend when looking to progress or expand! Fiscal prudence at its finest. For someone who claims to not be looking to throw shade at Lampard, you do seem to be making a pretty good fist of it recently. Each to their own I guess, but please don't assume that your rationale is one we should all accept as to my eyes it is full of factual inaccuracies and hopelessly inappropriate metrics. 

[SlugForAButt]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

Imagine playing the victim card when it's your club who has been the one cheating and using utter shithouse tactics. 

Not playing the victim card at all, just pointing out the hilarious over reaction to something that is likely quite common even in this country. And for you to blame being outplayed in general on someone seeing a few of your set pieces is, frankly, just being a bad loser.

That being said, I can understand action being taken over the BPF boot incident, it looked like it needs looking into. It should maybe have seen a penalty given, but since when have we seen Refs all singing from the same hymn sheet? What goes round comes round over a season.

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, Carnero said:

No but it means that your new house is only considered £50k "better" than your old house.

We came 6th last season. We invested a net of £0 and we're currently 6th again. Frank is doing just fine.

Agreed but using that logic FL also has the benefit of all the previous big money signings and is also responsible for their wages, so therefore has not had his hands financially tied.

Agree he is doing OK. 

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, 86 points said:

Indeed, I'm sure Rowett and Bruce revelled in their experiences at Stoke and Villa. To hear you talk one would think all a team has to do is spend a few quid and success will inevitably follow. I'm sure too that many managers would love to buy more players - the question is would the management skills then guarantee success? Your house analogy is ridiculous by the way. Perhaps you should have included some commentary on rotten woodwork in the loft space or pointing needing looking at. What about subsidence and an urgent need for major structural upgrades? And I'm sure all businesses simply look at their overall expenditure with no regard for net spend when looking to progress or expand! Fiscal prudence at its finest. For someone who claims to not be looking to throw shade at Lampard, you do seem to be making a pretty good fist of it recently. Each to their own I guess, but please don't assume that your rationale is one we should all accept as to my eyes it is full of factual inaccuracies and hopelessly inappropriate metrics. 

You seem to be moving the argument in a direction that represents nothing that I said.

I've not mentioned spending equal success.

I don't want you to accept my rationale, we all know by now that you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with your thoughts or may be even slightly negative.

I'm more than happy to read about my factual inaccuracies...fire away.