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'suspicious' man outside Derby County's training ground


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28 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

In my opinion, Bielsa is a cheat. If he believes he has done nothing wrong then he is a fool.

Anyone with any integrity would know this is wrong.

Feel free to go and watch games with your up coming opposition, but never stoop so low as to sneak into bushes at training grounds to get the upper hand.

He has admitted this and I am sure there are a good few other championship clubs who will also feel aggrieved that he has admitted doing this.

He has come out to say this is nothing to do with Leeds Utd ( I assume in an attempt to prevent any punishment going there way). However it doesn't take away the fact that he is the manager and armed with any information, he is going to influence his team set up and the way they set up during set pieces. etc.

I am under no illusion that the result would be any different on Friday, but you still have to question his ethics.

 

CHEAT 

A cheat?  Really?  For the love of God....

I'm a Leeds fan and generally try very hard not to judge my club with an emotional block on the bad stuff and a pink filter over my eyes.  For example, I was maddened at the decision to tour Myanmar and was entirely understanding of the need to punish the club for our financial mismanagement, as much as it hurt the supporters the most.  I know I can do it, even though it's sometimes hard to think ill of your loved one.   On this occasion though, i'm mystified by the outrage and cannot accept the supposed crime.  I first heard the story on the radio before going out and thought it was a little amusing but Bielsa all over, any way to get a marginal gain. Hats off to the bloke.   Went out for a few hours, came back and was genuinely amazed to see that people were getting in an indignant flap about it.  Weird.

At that point it hadn't occurred time that it is probably quite widely done any way but as numerous pros have said since, this is far from abnormal behaviour.  Then when you stop to think about it, why on earth would you not send a scout to watch your upcoming rivals train?  You'd send them to watch the game they play before your game so why wouldn't you send one to a public training session?  I think the use of the word "spy" has clouded people's judgments on this.

The only weird thing is the supposed wire cutters but if they haven't been used then it's a non-issue.

The indignation is baffling to the point of seeming disingenuous.  I'm sure if Lampard had done the same, you'd be shrugging your shoulders and commending him for thinking of every possible angle to outfox his opponent.  In return, I genuinely believe I would have been more impressed than I would have been angry.  I'd have seen a man learning fast and being ambitious enough to think of everything.

As for this supposed moral code gibberish, it's a mirage.  Dirty tricks exist under the surface of the game in every direction you look.  From tactical fouls, to time wasting, to diving and play acting.  That's just on the pitch.  You won't see half of the trickery going on behind the scenes but examples frequently bubble to the surface.  I'm not even sold on the idea that sending someone into a public place to watch an upcoming opponent train is anything close to approaching a moral misdemeanor.  It seems pretty rational to me.

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5 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

A cheat?  Really?  For the love of God....

I'm a Leeds fan and generally try very hard not to judge my club with an emotional block on the bad stuff and a pink filter over my eyes.  For example, I was maddened at the decision to tour Myanmar and was entirely understanding of the need to punish the club for our financial mismanagement, as much as it hurt the supporters the most.  I know I can do it, even though it's sometimes hard to think ill of your loved one.   On this occasion though, i'm mystified by the outrage and cannot accept the supposed crime.  I first heard the story on the radio before going out and thought it was a little amusing but Bielsa all over, any way to get a marginal gain. Hats off to the bloke.   Went out for a few hours, came back and was genuinely amazed to see that people were getting in an indignant flap about it.  Weird.

At that point it hadn't occurred time that it is probably quite widely done any way but as numerous pros have said since, this is far from abnormal behaviour.  Then when you stop to think about it, why on earth would you not send a scout to watch your upcoming rivals train?  You'd send them to watch the game they play before your game so why wouldn't you send one to a public training session?  I think the use of the word "spy" has clouded people's judgments on this.

The only weird thing is the supposed wire cutters but if they haven't been used then it's a non-issue.

The indignation is baffling to the point of seeming disingenuous.  I'm sure if Lampard had done the same, you'd be shrugging your shoulders and commending him for thinking of every possible angle to outfox his opponent.  In return, I genuinely believe I would have been more impressed than I would have been angry.  I'd have seen a man learning fast and being ambitious enough to think of everything.

As for this supposed moral code gibberish, it's a mirage.  Dirty tricks exist under the surface of the game in every direction you look.  From tactical fouls, to time wasting, to diving and play acting.  That's just on the pitch.  You won't see half of the trickery going on behind the scenes but examples frequently bubble to the surface.  I'm not even sold on the idea that sending someone into a public place to watch an upcoming opponent train is anything close to approaching a moral misdemeanor.  It seems pretty rational to me.

Going to a game is one thing and I am fully aware that this is normal practice. But sending someone to check out set peices and get an upper hand and prior knowledge on the team set up due to injuries etc is just plain cheating.

I am very sure you would be up in arms in the shoe was on the other foot.

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39 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

This in response to a comment where I quote myself saying 'I'm not saying Bielsa is right'. How on earth are you reading that as absolving him of all guilt? I also haven't mentioned the thing about different cultures, not once.

What I have said is that it seems it goes on routinely in this country; Mourinho, Warnock, Ferguson, so claiming to be so shocked like it's never happened before doesn't wash.

It's the extent to which Frank is claiming to be outraged which is making him look silly, given its prevalence in the English game, not least his own club. That's how it strikes me, anyway, it's almost like he's protesting too much. 

Sorry if that view offends you, but I can't do anything about you getting offended by things I haven't said. 

My post was a general response to the number of posts you made over the weekend. 

You do say that "I'm not giving Bielsa a 'free pass' at all, but his position is at least consistent."

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31371-suspicious-man-outside-derby-countys-training-ground/?do=findComment&comment=1597630

Which is fair enough, but at the same time you also say "I'm inclined to believe that he genuinely doesn't see this as cheating." What doesn't his free pass cover then, the change of clothes?

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31371-suspicious-man-outside-derby-countys-training-ground/?do=findComment&comment=1597509

For me, this fell under the "different cultures" because it happens in Argentina, Bielsa's argument on when talking to Sky. 

You do claim it's prevalent in this country, something that if you have said previously I have missed it, although I would like to see evidence of this.

Some pundits have made wishy washy claims of "probably" happening there seems to be a lack of evidence to back this up, I find it odd that some players seem to be aware of it happening yet others totally disgusted by it and looking for Bielsa to be punished.

Not suggesting it has never happened, I just have doubts it's prevalent and you mention Warnock but when asked about the situation his response was

“I mean [Bielsa] says they do it all over the world. Listen, I hope they come and watch us, it will confuse them. They are quite welcome to come and watch us train.”

https://www.the42.ie/neil-warnock-brexit-4437567-Jan2019/

To me that sounds like a manager that was surprised to hear it happens all over the world and made a tongue in cheek comment about coming to watch his team play.

I also find it odd that you say "The whole idea of training 'in secret' seems a bit daft to me anyway; it hadn't occurred to me that that was even a thing." 

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31371-suspicious-man-outside-derby-countys-training-ground/?do=findComment&comment=1596739

Really? Whilst clubs do hold open door training sessions for fans at various times through the year, they are mainly fitness based and shooting practice, do you really think that game preparation training sessions are open for all, we can all just rock up to Moor Farm and watch?

Or is this the belief that you have that clubs have spies up trees around every training ground and it's just been the done thing for years so they are hardly secret. 

Makes you wonder why clubs have security, fences, screens at all right, why not just invite them in and show some hospitality. Maybe hand out schedules for the day so they can come back if it's just set pieces they want intel on.

 

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1 minute ago, BathRam72 said:

Going to a game is one thing and I am fully aware that this is normal practice. But sending someone to check out set peices and get an upper hand and prior knowledge on the team set up due to injuries etc is just plain cheating.

I am very sure you would be up in arms in the shoe was on the other foot.

As I said, I tend to try not to be like that but I can't expect you to accept that so guess it's moot all round.  I'm not sure what there is to be up in arms about though, that's my problem here.  There is nothing illegal that has occurred and no law in the game broken.  How then, can it be cheating?  If cheating bothers you so much to start with, how can you even watch a game?  There were Derby players tugging Leeds shirts in the box, hacking players down from behind, performing tactical fouls etc just in that game.  Are you telling me that Derby players never do a slow walk off the pitch when being subbed at 1-0 up or kick the ball away if the defence isn't in shape for an opponent's free kick?  That is cheating in plain sight as it infringes laws.  There have been no laws broken here.  There is a moral question being asked and that's it.  If you want your sport to be spotlessly moral, football isn't your game.  Personally, i'm not even sure it's immoral, it's just bloody sensible.

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1 minute ago, Pub Breath said:

As I said, I tend to try not to be like that but I can't expect you to accept that so guess it's moot all round.  I'm not sure what there is to be up in arms about though, that's my problem here.  There is nothing illegal that has occurred and no law in the game broken.  How then, can it be cheating?  If cheating bothers you so much to start with, how can you even watch a game?  There were Derby players tugging Leeds shirts in the box, hacking players down from behind, performing tactical fouls etc just in that game.  Are you telling me that Derby players never do a slow walk off the pitch when being subbed at 1-0 up or kick the ball away if the defence isn't in shape for an opponent's free kick?  That is cheating in plain sight as it infringes laws.  There have been no laws broken here.  There is a moral question being asked and that's it.  If you want your sport to be spotlessly moral, football isn't your game.  Personally, i'm not even sure it's immoral, it's just bloody sensible.

The thing is, we will never know just how you feel had it happened the other way round will we.

As for shirt tugging and tactical fouls, unfortunately that has become part of the game and I blame the officials for not pulling players up for it right from the start, just as kicking an opposition player in the face is bad form. 

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If this is all fine and above board, then why the subterfuge? Why don't all clubs just send a scout into the training centre and have him state, "I'm here from X club to watch the training session"? Then he could at least have a tea and a sausage butty on the touchline, rather than skulking around in the bushes like a ducking sex pest.

I'm not overly concerned by the incident and I don't think Leeds or Bielsa should face any punishment from the football authorities, but simply looking logically at the ramifications of this shows why it's generally agreed that it isn't practiced. If spies at training sessions becomes the norm then clubs will not only employ an army of spies, but security teams patrolling the premises, drone operators, etc... etc... If spying is no big deal, why would it be any worse to chuck a bung at a low level coach or youth team player for information regarding training routines and team selection? Then you'd have managers starting to bluff the opposition by deliberately running training routines contrary to what they planned to do on match day. Do we really need football to be any more of a circus than it already is?

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4 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

As I said, I tend to try not to be like that but I can't expect you to accept that so guess it's moot all round.  I'm not sure what there is to be up in arms about though, that's my problem here.  There is nothing illegal that has occurred and no law in the game broken.  How then, can it be cheating?  If cheating bothers you so much to start with, how can you even watch a game?  There were Derby players tugging Leeds shirts in the box, hacking players down from behind, performing tactical fouls etc just in that game.  Are you telling me that Derby players never do a slow walk off the pitch when being subbed at 1-0 up or kick the ball away if the defence isn't in shape for an opponent's free kick?  That is cheating in plain sight as it infringes laws.  There have been no laws broken here.  There is a moral question being asked and that's it.  If you want your sport to be spotlessly moral, football isn't your game.  Personally, i'm not even sure it's immoral, it's just bloody sensible.

You make some reasonable points, but they all just make me feel worse about the whole situation.

Yes - there is no law of the game that has been broken here, as it occurred outside of an actual match. Had something similar happened during a game, it would be considered unsporting conduct and could be penalised. What would the reaction be if an opponent stood in the middle of your huddle listening to tactics being discussed?

But as you say - there are an awful lot of things on a matchday that are unsporting and more often than not go unpunished, so for me it's all about where the lines are drawn and where this incident takes the game in general.

If we accept it is OK (as you seem to be suggesting) then every team will have to consider doing it to get a competitive advantage, but then the precedent is set - not just for spying on training sessions, but on pushing the boundaries of conduct outside of the 90 minutes.

Would it be OK to bug the opponents dressing room, to hear what tactical changes they have planned for the second half. Your logic says yes (and I've seen people suggest that Bielsa does this anyway). Double agents? Train up a load of coaches and then send them out to get jobs with opponents but keep them on the payroll as assets. Then push the boundaries - do the same with players.

It just makes the game ugly and eventually it will become even more boring than it is now. I struggle to enjoy football these days because of commercialisation, huge amounts of money skewing the playing field etc

This whole debate just makes me want to go and watch Matlock Town

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6 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

The thing is, we will never know just how you feel had it happened the other way round will we.

As for shirt tugging and tactical fouls, unfortunately that has become part of the game and I blame the officials for not pulling players up for it right from the start, just as kicking an opposition player in the face is bad form. 

You can blame the officials for letting it go but we still know these are outlawed.  It is cheating, if as player does something that is a prohibited move, regardless of whether officials are or are not applying the laws of the game correctly.  You cannot absolve your players of that responsibility.  You certainly cannot absolve them of the responsibility of cynically hacking down players when they have broken clear of them, with zero effort to get the ball.  That happened a few times from your men.  It's an illegal move and they were punished as such.    There are NO laws against what Bielsa did so who is the more obvious cheat?

As for BPF - and just to evidence further that i'm not here to defend my club and it's staff regardless - I was dumbfounded by that.  Not least of all because it seems so out of character for him.  I don't have an explanation for why he did it and what he was thinking but he does deserve some retrospective punishment for it as what he did was ridiculously dangerous.  I have no defence of that whatsoever.  But this isn't a pissing competition about which players cheated the worst on the pitch.  It's about the fact that yours did, yet your moral outrage only seemingly works in one direction.  Your players cheat - it's the officials fault.  The opposition manager doesn't break any laws - CHEAT!

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13 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

public training session

It wasn't

13 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

The only weird thing is the supposed wire cutters but if they haven't been used then it's a non-issue.

No one has said whether they were used or not. There is clear intent to break into the training ground though

13 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

The indignation is baffling to the point of seeming disingenuous.  I'm sure if Lampard had done the same, you'd be shrugging your shoulders and commending him for thinking of every possible angle to outfox his opponent. 

He didn't based on the etiquette in this country. If it was suddenly deemed acceptable in this country then it's possible he will change he viewpoint. However, it currently isn't.

13 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

As for this supposed moral code gibberish, it's a mirage.  Dirty tricks exist under the surface of the game in every direction you look.  From tactical fouls, to time wasting, to diving and play acting.  

Punished by the referee if he sees the act.

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7 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

You can blame the officials for letting it go but we still know these are outlawed.  It is cheating, if as player does something that is a prohibited move, regardless of whether officials are or are not applying the laws of the game correctly.  You cannot absolve your players of that responsibility.  You certainly cannot absolve them of the responsibility of cynically hacking down players when they have broken clear of them, with zero effort to get the ball.  That happened a few times from your men.  It's an illegal move and they were punished as such.    There are NO laws against what Bielsa did so who is the more obvious cheat?

As for BPF - and just to evidence further that i'm not here to defend my club and it's staff regardless - I was dumbfounded by that.  Not least of all because it seems so out of character for him.  I don't have an explanation for why he did it and what he was thinking but he does deserve some retrospective punishment for it as what he did was ridiculously dangerous.  I have no defence of that whatsoever.  But this isn't a pissing competition about which players cheated the worst on the pitch.  It's about the fact that yours did, yet your moral outrage only seemingly works in one direction.  Your players cheat - it's the officials fault.  The opposition manager doesn't break any laws - CHEAT!

I never said anything about whether I agreed with players cheating on the pitch, YOU DID.

I merely stated that if the officials clamped down on this sort of thing there would be much less of it, check out a rugby match now and then and you will see what discipline looks like. All down to the powers of the official.

As for players tugging shirts etc, I suggest you go back and watch the game again as I believe the commentators first mentioned this when one of yours had a handful of one of ours. They all do it but allowed to get away with it.

 

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37 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

The indignation is baffling to the point of seeming disingenuous.  I'm sure if Lampard had done the same, you'd be shrugging your shoulders and commending him for thinking of every possible angle to outfox his opponent.  In return, I genuinely believe I would have been more impressed than I would have been angry.

I've been following this thread without commenting therefore you weren't replying to me but personally speaking I would be hugely disappointed if my team stooped so low.  I believe it crosses moral and ethical boundaries and I fully expect the FA to issue a warning/rap on the knuckles/fine/whatever and tighten up the rules going forwards. 

Surely it goes without saying that all teams have the right to privacy up until they hand their team sheets in prior to kick off?  Turning a blind eye to it only leads to someone pushing the boundaries in the future and flying a drone over a training ground or bugging a dressing room.

As for players cheating, its a bit like being drunk and disorderly in the street - most of the time the authorities turn a blind eye until the point where it becomes the norm ?

As a low league snooker player myself I am constantly impressed when players call fouls on themselves for stuff no one else would ever notice.  I guess its asking for to much to change football now-a-days but when something like 'spygate' happens we either deal with it to ensure it doesn't become the norm or sit back and watch as t it slowly gets worse.

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3 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You make some reasonable points, but they all just make me feel worse about the whole situation.

Yes - there is no law of the game that has been broken here, as it occurred outside of an actual match. Had something similar happened during a game, it would be considered unsporting conduct and could be penalised. What would the reaction be if an opponent stood in the middle of your huddle listening to tactics being discussed?

But as you say - there are an awful lot of things on a matchday that are unsporting and more often than not go unpunished, so for me it's all about where the lines are drawn and where this incident takes the game in general.

If we accept it is OK (as you seem to be suggesting) then every team will have to consider doing it to get a competitive advantage, but then the precedent is set - not just for spying on training sessions, but on pushing the boundaries of conduct outside of the 90 minutes.

Would it be OK to bug the opponents dressing room, to hear what tactical changes they have planned for the second half. Your logic says yes (and I've seen people suggest that Bielsa does this anyway). Double agents? Train up a load of coaches and then send them out to get jobs with opponents but keep them on the payroll as assets. Then push the boundaries - do the same with players.

It just makes the game ugly and eventually it will become even more boring than it is now. I struggle to enjoy football these days because of commercialisation, huge amounts of money skewing the playing field etc

This whole debate just makes me want to go and watch Matlock Town

Absolutely not.  Nor would hacking their IT network to steal player data.  That's the thrust of my point I suppose, that what we did was logical and not unlawful.   If the bloke had used those wire cutters to gain access to a private training area, that's a whole different matter.  I could not advocate a club breaking laws to gain advantage, I do have some scruples ?  I just believe that if the opportunity is there to have someone watch a training session legally, why on earth wouldn't you?  Some clubs have open training sessions attended  by hundreds and sometimes thousands.  After I had time to think about it, I actually thought it was strange that it was a story at all, I think it was the word spy that threw me a little.  If you'd asked me before all this whether or not clubs send people to watch other team's public training sessions, i'd have said yes in a heartbeat.  It would have been naive to think otherwise, surely?

Important to stay within the law though, that's the obvious line that cannot be crossed.

 

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8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It wasn't

No one has said whether they were used or not. There is clear intent to break into the training ground though

He didn't based on the etiquette in this country. If it was suddenly deemed acceptable in this country then it's possible he will change he viewpoint. However, it currently isn't.

Punished by the referee if he sees the act.

My understanding (and willing to be corrected) is that he was approached by police on a public footpath.  They couldn't arrest him because of this but was moved on.  If it was a public footpath, then it's a public training session for my money.  It was not "behind closed doors".

If the cutters had been used, there would have been an arrest for criminal damage.  All reports seem to indicate there was no damage caused to property.

There is no "etiquette of this country".  Well perhaps there is but I never got the bloody leaflet. 

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34 minutes ago, David said:

My post was a general response to the number of posts you made over the weekend. 

The number of posts reflects the fact it's one person arguing against several, rather than my enthusiasm for the subject. Also the fact I'm having to repeatedly clarify what I didn't say. 

I think I'm taking a reasonably balanced view, and asking questions prompted by my own reaction. This seems to have triggered everyone to get the pitchforks out in defence of Derby County. It's at the point of having to agree to disagree tbh. 

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11 minutes ago, Pub Breath said:

Absolutely not.

Important to stay within the law though, that's the obvious line that cannot be crossed.
 

Yet the extreme examples I gave you - which you said were "absolutely not" OK are not specifically illegal, so you've just totally contradicted yourself there. If the law is the "obvious line" not to cross then you should be saying all those examples are OK

 

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