Comrade 86 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, Lambchop said: As mentioned to 86p, if Frank didn't know when he was at Chelsea, he will certainly have learned of it since. Wow! If he's learned of it since does that necessarily mean he condones it? Are you saying that because he played under a cheat, he himself is forever tarnished whether he cheats or not? Let's focus on the facts here- as far as we know, Frank is not a cheat. We know with total certainty that Bielsa is. Given these facts, why is Frank the focus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, 86 points said: Let's focus on the facts here- as far as we know, Frank is not a cheat. We know with total certainty that Bielsa is. Give these facts, why is Frank the focus? I'm not saying Frank is a cheat, I'm saying his taking the moral high ground here could be compromised by his association with Mourinho. He could remove all doubt by saying he condemns Mourinho's actions equally with Bielsa's. I wonder if he will do that, because it makes him look hypocritical otherwise. As for Bielsa being a cheat, he certainly doesn't see it that way. I'm not saying he's right, but I can understand his viewpoint. It's a separate question in any case. Whatever the rights and wrongs, I think the language and tone taken around the whole thing is too strong. It's a can of worms, and the sort of thing that comes back to bite you on the arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lambchop said: I'm not saying Frank is a cheat, I'm saying his taking the moral high ground here could be compromised by his association with Mourinho. He could remove all doubt by saying he condemns Mourinho's actions equally with Bielsa's. I wonder if he will do that, because it makes him look hypocritical otherwise. As for Bielsa being a cheat, he certainly doesn't see it that way. I'm not saying he's right, but I can understand his viewpoint. It's a separate question in any case. Whatever the rights and wrongs, I think the language and tone taken around the whole thing is too strong. It's a can of worms, and the sort of thing that comes back to bite you on the arse. Got loads of time for you Lambchop but I don't agree with a single word of the above. Perhaps I've drunk too much rum as this whole debate has my head in a flat spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will the Ram Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Lambchop said: Can you not cope with someone having a different opinion without getting your pitchfork out? No just that you seem to be backing Bielsa to hilt for some reason when he’s in the wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 So that’s the way it is then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I demand a public statement from all players who have ever played under Mourinho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 8 hours ago, Lambchop said: For those who haven't seen it: https://www.foxsportsasia.com/football/1017548/marcelo-bielsa-isnt-the-only-one-to-spy-on-opposition-jose-mourinho-did-it-too/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/8590660/Chelsea-manager-Andre-Villas-Boas-is-an-analyst-who-leaves-nothing-a-chance.html Sorry to spoil your Leeds love in once again Lambchop on the Derby County fans forum, but can you find me the line in those articles where Lampard has supported spying or visiting training grounds incognito to back up this hypocrisy theory you are trying to place upon OUR manager? Could you also put some more meat on this for me please: “I will travel to training grounds, often incognito, and look at our opponents’ mental and physical state before drawing my conclusions. Jose will leave nothing to chance.” You see this could be simply parking up in the training ground under a false identity watching players walk into the building, are they happy, joking, or do they look down and walking with a slight limp, which would be a bit different to hiding in the bushes of the perimeter fence watching training with a pair of binoculars the day before a game. Now on to OUR manager, let me take this line from a news outlet you approve of, The Guardian, direct from Frank himself talking about Mourinho: ”There are things you like and things you don’t like in every manager. Certainly I took a bit from him on the mental side. Because at the time it felt like he really made me improve on the pitch and how I felt about the game, improved my confidence.” https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/sep/24/frank-lampard-jose-mourinho-derby-manchester-united-influence-undimmed I shouldn’t need to remind anyone that AVB was removed from Lampard’s Christmas card list a long time ago. In your relentless defence of all things Leeds United these past couple of weeks, you have made a couple of assumptions without proof in your guilty verdict of hypocrisy. 1) That Frank was aware and 2) That Frank approved Let’s ignore 1, say he had an idea of something was a bit fishy even though you claim this is all out there in the public domain, you won’t find many articles out there and the ones you do link back to that one Telegraph article. Did he know what AVB was up to exactly? As I mentioned earlier he could have been sat in the car park, not actively watching full training sessions. How do you know Frank approved of what was going on? Yes Lampard admires Mourinho, but that does not automatically mean the sun shines out his arse in everything he does, see his above quote directly talking about Mourinho ”There are things you like and things you don’t like in every manager” Then we have this. 7 hours ago, Lambchop said: Double standards If he was consistent in his views he would have called the police, reported it to the FA, and made a statement, surely? Did Frank call the Police himself? The FA released a statement to the media that they would be investigating this BEFORE Derby have even made an official complaint if you listen to Frank’s interview on Sky before the game, he was asked about making a complaint but said they shouldn’t have to, he’s openly admitted it now. Made a statement? Can you show me any statement made by Frank please, he has answered questions put to him in a or match interview, far as I’m aware there is no statement from Frank that exists on this issue. Finally and this is to put out there for everybody really as one question myself and a couple have asked several times now without being answered, if what Bielsa did was nothing, no significant advantage could be had, why does he do it? A line from the Telegraph article on AVB “He knew that the smallest detail could be the difference between winning and losing.” That one smallest detail, seeing Harry Wilson, Scott Malone not training, how we were preparing for set pieces. I see a few trying to brush this off as us looking like bad losers, I haven’t seen anyone suggest anything other than Leeds being by far the better team on the night, we wasn’t even close to matching them BUT, that does not take away from what Bielsa did or has been doing as very wrong. Maybe the FA and EFL never saw the need to add a line into the guidelines for spying as they didn’t think clubs would stoop that low. Asking us fans to just forget it and move on, pretend it didn’t happen is madness, as Revel earlier posted, what fans are discussing on forums has no bearing of what the club are doing behind the scenes, for all we know this hasn’t been mentioned once within the club walls since Friday. Maybe, just maybe that some of our fans have a little more integrity and are rightly miffed about the behaviour of Bielsa and do not find it “endearing” at all, and using this platform to show support to OUR manager which is Frank Lampard. Duck Leeds United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 7 hours ago, Will the Ram said: you seem to be backing Bielsa to hilt 1 hour ago, David said: your relentless defence of all things Leeds United 7 hours ago, Lambchop said: As for Bielsa... I'm not saying he's right, but I can understand his viewpoint. There's nothing like overstating the case, is there? You make some good points, David, but you, and others, have framed it in such a way that anything I say is regarded as some kind of disloyalty. It doesn't seem to me that the situation is as black and white (pun intended) as people would like it to be, and I've tried to suggest why; largely, the context of both managers' remarks, and the possible implications going forward. That this is perceived as a one sided defence of another club and an attack on our own closes down the conversation, really. I clearly haven't said anything of the sort if you read my comments in an even handed way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Bored now. I’m only keeping an eye out on this thread for an update if the fa / efl actually decide on anything. Wake me up when that happens (I suspect I’ll be sleeping for longer than sleeping beauty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, TigerTedd said: Bored now. I’m only keeping an eye out on this thread for an update if the fa / efl actually decide on anything. Wake me up when that happens (I suspect I’ll be sleeping for longer than sleeping beauty). Hopefully nobody quotes you in this thread causing you to believe there's news when there's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, TigerTedd said: Bored now. I’m only keeping an eye out on this thread for an update if the fa / efl actually decide on anything. Wake me up when that happens (I suspect I’ll be sleeping for longer than sleeping beauty). Oh, no news by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 In my opinion, Bielsa is a cheat. If he believes he has done nothing wrong then he is a fool. Anyone with any integrity would know this is wrong. Feel free to go and watch games with your up coming opposition, but never stoop so low as to sneak into bushes at training grounds to get the upper hand. He has admitted this and I am sure there are a good few other championship clubs who will also feel aggrieved that he has admitted doing this. He has come out to say this is nothing to do with Leeds Utd ( I assume in an attempt to prevent any punishment going there way). However it doesn't take away the fact that he is the manager and armed with any information, he is going to influence his team set up and the way they set up during set pieces. etc. I am under no illusion that the result would be any different on Friday, but you still have to question his ethics. CHEAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I bet Carson was catching those crosses in training though. 10 times in 10. Because why the feck would you punch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Lambchop said: There's nothing like overstating the case, is there? You make some good points, David, but you, and others, have framed it in such a way that anything I say is regarded as some kind of disloyalty. It doesn't seem to me that the situation is as black and white (pun intended) as people would like it to be, and I've tried to suggest why; largely, the context of both managers' remarks, and the possible implications going forward. That this is perceived as a one sided defence of another club and an attack on our own closes down the conversation, really. I clearly haven't said anything of the sort if you read my comments in an even handed way. Having caught up after a couple of days off, what I found difficult to swallow is the accusations/attack’s on our manager through assumptions you have made with little evidence. Flipping this into a Lampard embarrassment, turning us into a laughing stock whilst fully absolving Bielsa of all guilt because it’s just different cultures right. Sorry but no, and it’s been a huge talking point all weekend by pundits that probably couldn’t name 10 Championship clubs without 11 erms for a reason, as many have pointed out the culture thing is letting him off the hook too easily. Stan Collymore, the man we have a lovely song for, the ex Forest and Leicester player was even against it and in our corner, one pundit which you wouldn’t blame him for having a dig at us being sore losers. If it was just a defence of Bielsa not understanding the culture, or questioning the advantages which were/are gained I probably wouldn’t have bothered replying. But to attack our own manager who is the victim in all this is just plain wrong. Apologies if I painted you as some kind of Leeds fan, got to admit this has irritated me somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, Alpha said: Oh, no news by the way There should be a FU emoji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, David said: Flipping this into a Lampard embarrassment, turning us into a laughing stock whilst fully absolving Bielsa of all guilt because it’s just different cultures right This in response to a comment where I quote myself saying 'I'm not saying Bielsa is right'. How on earth are you reading that as absolving him of all guilt? I also haven't mentioned the thing about different cultures, not once. What I have said is that it seems it goes on routinely in this country; Mourinho, Warnock, Ferguson, so claiming to be so shocked like it's never happened before doesn't wash. It's the extent to which Frank is claiming to be outraged which is making him look silly, given its prevalence in the English game, not least his own club. That's how it strikes me, anyway, it's almost like he's protesting too much. Sorry if that view offends you, but I can't do anything about you getting offended by things I haven't said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lambchop said: This in response to a comment where I quote myself saying 'I'm not saying Bielsa is right'. How on earth are you reading that as absolving him of all guilt? I also haven't mentioned the thing about different cultures, not once. What I have said is that it seems it goes on routinely in this country; Mourinho, Warnock, Ferguson, so claiming to be so shocked like it's never happened before doesn't wash. It's the extent to which Frank is claiming to be outraged which is making him look silly, given its prevalence in the English game, not least his own club. That's how it strikes me, anyway, it's almost like he's protesting too much. Sorry if that view offends you, but I can't do anything about you getting offended by things I haven't said. You mean Derby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, BathRam72 said: You mean Derby? No, Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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