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Vs Leeds away. (Matchday thread).


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Frank looked rattled pre match and the the team matched his mentality as they walked on the pitch. Whatever the spy was intended to do it worked. Frank got far too involved in the occasion and it effected the team, the same happened at Stoke, the match was built up to something it shouldn’t be, you could see Lampard and his staff arguing with rowett and his. The difference was the stoke staff were giggling about it, they knew they had got to them and we were shocking that night as well.

 

Now we have a massive problem with conceededing goals from crosses, look back over our last  few games we’ve conceded 2 goals directly from crosses last night, 1 against boro, 2 against Norwich,  2 against Sheff U and this is just 4 games, go back through the season and it’s scary. What’s worrying me the most is we’re more than halfway through the season and it seems we’ve done nothing to rectify this massive flaw, it’s happened with the same regularity all season. Are we not training to prevent this or do we just simply not have any defenders at the club that can stop it?

 

Where has the early season football philosophy gone? Where’s the pressing? Where’s the quick incisive passing? Last night was as bad if not worse as the 2-0 loss away at wolves last season but Leeds are nowhere near as good!

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4 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

So. me & the other Derby fan at work got the dubious privilege of being dragged to the Norman Hunter Suite this evening under the flimsy pretence of 'corporate entertainment'. No pictures of the slack jawed moron missing the tackle that cost England a place in the 1974 World Cup on the walls but hey.

General impression - outclassed in every sense...mostly due to a lack of time/space because of Leeds' energy in closing down. Player ratings;

Carson - 5 - No chance with the goals but some flapping which didn't help confidence

Wisdom - 2 - diabolical, good call to take him off at half time

Lowe - 4 - looked nervous & offered very little from the left flank

Keogh - 6 - Steady, harsh to blame on the goals

Tomori - 6 - Again, steady...some runs out of defence that had some promise. Until someone mis-controlled it on their shin/fell over the ball

Evans - 5 - ineffective

Mount - 5 - ineffective

Bryson- 4 - there's a theme here. ineffective.

Holmes - 7 - liked his dynamism. Nothing came of it but liked his fight. Great hair. Filled in at RB in 2nd half

Lawrence - 5 - like a really really really bad version of Ronaldo

Marriott - 5 - no service, no chance

subs

Jozefzoon - 6 - ran around a bit

Waghorn - 6 - nice biceps

Nugent - 6 - he scored once for England yeah

Away fans - 5 - mostly silent. Some semblance of singing at 0-2 on around 70 mins, lasted 30 secs. 

Frankly, we were dreadful. As bad as the McClaren debacle in 2017...an absolute 2-0 hiding. Should have been 5/6. Appalling all round.

Carson 5! at fault for both goals.nearer to minus 5 I think.we were dreadfull .what the hell do we do in training?

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For me and it was frighteningly obvious last night, we have 2 areas that need addressing (maybe a 3rd). 

1st the fullbacks, we are desperate for a full back who can defend/stop a cross. Both left and right.

2nd and more importantly the midfield, we need someone with some bite who can run the midfield. Last night Evans and Mount where non-exsistant, might as well of played with 9. Really disappointed in Mount recently, not sure what’s happened there. Bryson put a shift in, covered some ground and made some tackles. But that’s it, doesn’t control a game anymore. 

3rd we need a back up or a partner for Marriott, maybe Waghorn needs a chance a CF with him. But please Frank Nugent is not the answer, he may start the bounce, he may be great in the dressing room, he may stick his thumb up at every pass (whether is good or bad) but he’s just a long distance runnner, that’s it.

I know this won’t be addressed this month, but over the next few windows for me these are the areas we need to sort. 

Ps thought Keogh was great last night ??

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7 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

Don't know you Fraser but let's just agree that you are no tactical genius and had had a few by half time when Frank made the change.

Andre was not having a good game. Too many Leeds attacks were coming down that side and he wasn't dealing with them. How much that was his fault and how much the part fault of others is more debatable.

But we were one down, Andre wasn't playing well and Frank wanted to bring Nugent on to give Marriott more support and to give their defence more to think about - it was an attacking change.  Duane Holmes had had an OK first half. He had a better second half - made some tackles, brought the ball forward, troubled some of their players, played in their half and put us (together with Nugent) more on the front foot.  Still not good enough but Frank's thought process was excellent. He took a risk - frustrated by the early second half goal - that was positive. Some of our previous managers would have stuffed another defender on and taken Duane off. Which do you prefer?

Taking Evans or Mount off, leaving Wisdom on and going to 442 neither offered anything last night.

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Lessons to learn from the Leeds game for Frank:

1 Spy on the opposition training sessions prior to the game.

2 Ask your goalkeeper to catch the ball when not pressured by a member of the opposition (Carson punched the ball which gave the back the possession required to score the first goal}.

3 As your left back to block intended crosses provided by the opposition's right winger. Our left back couldn't, which led to the second goal.

4 Ask your goalkeeper to ensure the ball goes out of play if he isn't unable to catch it. Ours didn't and it gave them a second goal.

5 If your player is touched by a member of the opposition ask him to fall down in a theatrical manner as if he has been shot and role around clutching his leg. Several Leeds players  ( particularly Alioski ,Ayling and Roofe) did this all night to ensure they won the foul and to persuade the referee to book a member of the opposition. Yet no Leeds player went off with an injury! Some would call it cheating ( after all we were playing Leeds) or gamesmanship but the ref bought it all night.

6 Don't lose the ball and if you do hunt the opposition down in packs to win it back. Leeds were very effective in pressing us and we couldn't keep the ball or play in any coherent pattern.

7 Get your players fit. Leeds were fit and very physical.

8 Ask your centre half to hold the shirt of the player he is marking at every corner. Cooper has been doing it all season but the referees don't seem to mind.

9 Ask your striker to harass and chase the referee all night over every decision. Roofe did it all night without sanction.

10 If you spend £5 million on a new player please make sure he is good enough to make your first 11.(Waghorn).

The moral of the story is that you don't need players who can do Cruyff turns, beat three players and chip the goalkeeper, or bend the ball around the wall from 30 years into the top corner. You need a fit, determined,ruthless team, which pressures the opposition into making mistakes and losing the ball, and isn't averse to gamesmanship and cheating. You also need the opposition to gift you goals and we did!

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4 hours ago, Lambchop said:

How so? Bielsa only arrived in June and their best player is 18.

So disappointing tonight. I was looking forward to an exciting game between two fluid, attacking sides. Instead, we capitulated from the first minute. 

I've said it elsewhere and been ridiculed, but again I was struck by the difference in mentality, desire and team spirit. They absolutely play for each other as a unit, and desperately fight to win every ball. We are a bunch of half arsed individuals ghosting through the game. 

Most of Leeds' players are not world beaters. It's probably only Clarke and Hernandez who are of above average ability. Even Roofe is wasteful and inconsistent, but he never gives up. They are more than the sum of their parts, and that's down to coaching and attitude. 

I completely support Frank, but he's starting to annoy me. It takes more than looking peeved on the touchline whilst making the same mistakes over and over. He needs to start building some consistency around our strengths so that the players know what they're supposed to be doing. At the moment it's like we go back to square one every week. 

I suspect this season is as good as over. We're not good enough to go up, and I'd be seriously frightened if we did. Start building now for the changes that need to be made in the summer. I don't want us to make a couple of signings now to shore this team up. We need a long term plan in place, and to identify the correct players to carry it out. 

I thought before this game, it would be a measure of our progress since the summer. Unfortunately, it was. 

A truthful and excellent post and I don't disagree with much you say above, especially the longer term plan, not to shore up this January and getting out muscled in midfield. Team spirit however ?. Last night was pretty much the same 11 as the Norwich come back and from what I saw we had heap spoonsful of team spirit and togetherness throughout that whole game. The after match back slapping posts on the Norwich match thread were laughable and after last night some of the posts on this thread and new threads started are as equally laughable ? (not including @86 points happy clapper thread, great post ? ).

The only thing I find a tad frustrating during this transitional season is the lumping of the ball up to Marriott. I know its about the second ball, more than 5.7ft Jack winning the header, but we have no scrappers in midfield to win these second balls. Surely Frank can see this?

Like you said @Lambchop disappointed is the main word that comes to mind from last night. However I still think we are doing better then I or I think most expected..

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4 minutes ago, Remy the hare said:

A truthful and excellent post and I don't disagree with much you say above, especially the longer term plan, not to shore up this January and getting out muscled in midfield. Team spirit however ?. Last night was pretty much the same 11 as the Norwich come back and from what I saw we had heap spoonsful of team spirit and togetherness throughout that whole game. The after match back slapping posts on the Norwich match thread were laughable and after last night some of the posts on this thread and new threads started are as equally laughable ? (not including @86 points happy clapper thread, great post ? ).

The only thing I find a tad frustrating during this transitional season is the lumping of the ball up to Marriott. I know its about the second ball, more than 5.7ft Jack winning the header, but we have no scrappers in midfield to win these second balls. Surely Frank can see this?

Like you said @Lambchop disappointed is the main word that comes to mind from last night. However I still think we are doing better then I or I think most expected..

I totally agree. Evans and Mount were anonymous last night and the dip in Mount's form concerns me. Individually Leeds aren't particularly impressive but they are fit,physical, relentless and have a strong team ethic. I don't think they outclassed us as they actually had very few clear cut chances. We gifted them 2 goals through individual mistakes. However Leeds protected their goal well and are difficult to score against.

I thought Bryson and Lawrence showed guts and tenacity for us but that was about it. I hope we sort ourselves out for the forthcoming games against Reading and Millwall which we must win.

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10 hours ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

 

Lawrence - 2. Sorry. But I can't stand the lad. He was woeful against Southampton and celebrated by sticking his fingers in his ears Infront of the home fans because he scored a great goal. He ain't a good enough player to celebrate like that. He did it at Preston away last season. He gets criticized because his effort isn't there. Half hearted attempts at closing down, tracking back. This was a big season for him. He infuriates me. I said it before. If someone offered near what we paid for him I'd sell him tomorrow and reinvest the money back in the squad.

 

This is ridiculous. You’ve got some deep rooted disliking for a player and it’s clouding your judgement. There were at least 7 worse performing players last night than Lawrence. 

Carson, Tomori, both fullbacks, Evans, Bryson, Mount if you wanted names... 

Jesus what he tried didn’t come off but he was the only one in their half trying something. 

 

Carry on telling our players how to celebrate...maybe we could introduce rules and really suck the fun out of football! 

 

His assist and goal against Southampton were both class. He isn’t going to produce that every game. No winger in the championship is hence why they’re in the championship! 

That winger for Leeds who gave Lowe nightmares will probably be poor in their next game. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ellafella said:

All part of the learning curve for Frank et al. We are smarting but it’ll be 10x for him. And we’ll be better for it in future. 

I know your right in what your saying . Still not helping me though. It'll take a few days to get over this one.

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The midfield was the problem last night. 

Bryson can not provide the energy any more. Evans was anonymous and Mount was marked out of the game. 

We need our other players to be taking advantage of the space created by teams man marking Mount but they just ain’t be clever/good enough to do it lately. 

 

Honestly like Evans but until his booking I wasn’t aware he was playing... 

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5 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

 

This is ridiculous. You’ve got some deep rooted disliking for a player and it’s clouding your judgement. There were at least 7 worse performing players last night than Lawrence. 

Carson, Tomori, both fullbacks, Evans, Bryson, Mount if you wanted names... 

Jesus what he tried didn’t come off but he was the only one in their half trying something. 

 

Carry on telling our players how to celebrate...maybe we could introduce rules and really suck the fun out of football! 

 

His assist and goal against Southampton were both class. He isn’t going to produce that every game. No winger in the championship is hence why they’re in the championship! 

That winger for Leeds who gave Lowe nightmares will probably be poor in their next game. 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on IIson ??

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10 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Okay, so based on the performance we’ve got no right to say we was robbed, and should be glad it was only 2-0. But duck me, the assault from their keeper was horrendous. 2-1, and with their keeper sent off, and it’s a different game. 

FIFY

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20 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

 

This is ridiculous. You’ve got some deep rooted disliking for a player and it’s clouding your judgement. There were at least 7 worse performing players last night than Lawrence. 

Carson, Tomori, both fullbacks, Evans, Bryson, Mount if you wanted names... 

Jesus what he tried didn’t come off but he was the only one in their half trying something. 

 

Carry on telling our players how to celebrate...maybe we could introduce rules and really suck the fun out of football! 

 

His assist and goal against Southampton were both class. He isn’t going to produce that every game. No winger in the championship is hence why they’re in the championship! 

That winger for Leeds who gave Lowe nightmares will probably be poor in their next game. 

 

 

 

 

He tries the same things. His work rate and effort is awful. He rightly gets criticized for it and on the rare occasion he does something good he sticks his fingers in his ears Infront of the fans.

He's nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. Nowhere near.

I'm not expecting him to he consistent and do it every week.

But he has a lot more poor games than he does good ones. 

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11 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Okay, so based on the performance we’ve got no right to say we was robbed, and should be glad it was only 2-0. But duck me, that challenge from their keeper was horrendous. 2-1, and with their keeper sent off, and it’s a different game. 

Having been at the match last night and having seen no press or tv coverage apart from the BBC report, which doesn't even mention it, was anything said about this at the time? I have only seen the video of the challenge on twitter, which looks dreadful and dangerous. 

Where was the referee?  Did he judge it as accidental? Was it?

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In real time, I couldn’t tell what happened (on TV). When it was replayed, the pundits were saying it was an awful challenge and there was no reason for the keeper to have his foot up. A Leeds friend at the match thought it was a straight red...

(We needed them to have at least 4 sent off as it looked like they had 15 players on the pitch!) ?

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8 minutes ago, angieram said:

Having been at the match last night and having seen no press or tv coverage apart from the BBC report, which doesn't even mention it, was anything said about this at the time? I have only seen the video of the challenge on twitter, which looks dreadful and dangerous. 

Where was the referee?  Did he judge it as accidental? Was it?

It was worse in slow motion. You can actually see the keeper move his foot up to Holmes face.  Replays were shown at the time and after the game. If Johnson got banned for biting a shirt I’d expect some action taken against the keeper based upon video evidence. Just another decision against us.

It doesn’t change the fact we gifted them two easy goals and played pretty rubbish all the game.

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2 minutes ago, Gritters said:

It was worse in slow motion. You can actually see the keeper move his foot up to Holmes face.  Replays were shown at the time and after the game. If Johnson got banned for biting a shirt I’d expect some action taken against the keeper based upon video evidence. Just another decision against us.

It doesn’t change the fact we gifted them two easy goals and played pretty rubbish all the game.

Thanks. I just wondered why it isn't being mentioned. BBC too busy commenting on the spygate thingy and the penalty Leeds should have had. Obviously, can't spotlight too much controversy in one match.

I take it that we were already a well beaten side by then but it looked a bad one to me.

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13 minutes ago, angieram said:

Having been at the match last night and having seen no press or tv coverage apart from the BBC report, which doesn't even mention it, was anything said about this at the time? I have only seen the video of the challenge on twitter, which looks dreadful and dangerous. 

Where was the referee?  Did he judge it as accidental? Was it?

It was totally glossed over and ignored. Technically definitely a sending off and a penalty. Bizarrely the “referee” gave a drop ball 15 yards further back! and instructed Nugent to roll it back to the keeper.

The keeper had gathered the ball but then once the ball was secured totally needlessly raised his right leg up to Holmes’ face and his studs were drawn down Holmes’s face. 

Another example of a very poor piece of refereeing that happens all too often. 

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29 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

He tries the same things. His work rate and effort is awful. He rightly gets criticized for it and on the rare occasion he does something good he sticks his fingers in his ears Infront of the fans.

He's nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. Nowhere near.

I'm not expecting him to he consistent and do it every week.

But he has a lot more poor games than he does good ones. 

I am inclined to agree about Lawrence I’m afraid. Total enigma; but doesn’t make my first XI and not a £7m footballer for me. Sorry Tom. 

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