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Goals Against


FindernRam

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Shipping 6 goals in 2 games is hardly a reassuring trend for the new year, but I was surprised to see we are still better than most and only Leeds and Boro are significantly better on this stat.

Boro don't score too many so I'm relatively hopeful for Tuesday if the defence gets its act together.

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4 minutes ago, bcnram said:

It does need addressing, GD could be so cruscial on the final day. It isn't just the two central defenders although they are an issue, it is our carelessness in giving the ball away in positions where we are going to be punished.

The majority of goals we've conceded have started with the ball coming in from wide positions and the cross not being stopped. I like Bogle, he's only 18 and has something about him, but at the moment defensively, we can't afford to carry him. Malone isn't great defensively, and Wiz is playing in a unfamiliar position so I don't want to give him too much stick.  My point is that these areas need strengthening. Bogle needs some pressure off his young shoulders

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The defence last season had a lot more protection in the way we played. We have moved to a more expansive attacking methodology which has allowed bigger holes for the opposition to exploit when we lose the ball, not in defence but mainly in midfield.

For example, in the Norwich game, their first goal comes from the midfield not winning the second ball from a Keogh clearance. The ball then goes long out wide where Wisdom fails to stop the cross coming in. Bogle losses track of his man, who manages to get in front of him, but the cross goes behind him anyway to Godfrey who Waghorn hasn't given too much attention to. It's a poor goal to concede on a number of accounts. 

The second goal is an outstanding example of what would never, ever, ever happen in Rowett's Derby team. Tomori bombs up the pitch, plays the ball to Wilson and keeps going, so we have five players standing on the last line of Norwich's defence. Of course, Wilson loses the ball and at that point they have more men attacking than we have defending. Evans has to fill in as a makeshift CB, but can't deal with Pukki's run. It's something I didn't notice until I rewatched it, but I'm not entirely sure why Tomori thought he was in the right mind to play maverick. 

The third goal, again, it's poor from a number of different factors - the biggest frustration is that it stems from our goal kick! Keogh follows his man well, but needs to do better in stopping him from making the pass. Evans then has to fill in for him, so the defence isn't set again. The biggest culprits are 1) Bogle, who gets done far too easily by their winger, and 2) Tomori, who doesn't have a clue that his man is hanging out behind him and is ball watching. 

I like both Tomori and Bogle, they're certainly worth persisting with, but these two have been accountable for a big percentage of our goals against this season. It's a team game, though, and we haven't defended well as a team. It's not the fault of just the last player to stop the cross or win the header that's at fault. We need to show a bit more grit and willingness to follow runners at times. Bogle & Tomori just need coaching. Keogh is a good example, when he goes on the charge he almost always plays the pass and fills back into his position. Tomori, on that occasion, decided to play striker after the run. It's fair to say that he got carried away in the moment, but hopefully it's something that's learnt from going forward. 

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Its always possible to pick apart every goal conceded, and start seeing individual culprits everywhere.

I would simply observe that we need to be a bit more compact as a team and generally stop giving the ball away so much. Pukki and Billy Sharp are excellent strikers. Their movement has caught out alot of other defenders too.

Also I like that aspect of the game where a centre half bombs on and makes the extra man. tomori did it well at chelsea in the cup.  Sheff united deploy that tactic very successfully. Its not something we've seen lot of since mark wright. 

I'd love it if keogh could finish of one of his rampaging runs with a goal sometime soon. One of the first games i ever went to i remember mcfarland suddenly bursting into the box in the inside right channel to score! What he was doing there i have no idea. But its fantastic provided that the team fills in accordingly and evans tried to do so for norwich's second. 

The only 'failing' i would highlight is the risk created when we split the centre backs left and right to offer the keeper an option when we play out. they then can't cover for each other. In my opinion thats why we shipped so many goals under mac2. But the answer isn't to call out individuals. Its just to play a little bit tighter. The second goal conceded v sheff utd is another classic example.keogh goes wide right to give carson an option, we lose possession and a routine ball down the middle then immediately catches us out. 

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2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

 

I'd love it if keogh could finish of one of his rampaging runs with a goal sometime soon. One of the first games i ever went to i remember mcfarland suddenly bursting into the box in the inside right channel to score! 

Exactly, Keogh is clearing really pushing for a wonder goal recently, rather than play the pass he's taking on the last man most games and going for a shot (I think the save from the keeper in the Bristol game comes to mind). 

Honestly wouldn't mind us going into the playoffs conceding more than everyone if we're out scoring them too. It's the heavy defeats we have to avoid, the best teams know when to shut up shop, that's one of the only faults I can find in Frank, if he knew how to change it to go fully defensive without looking like a team of manic Keoghs we'd be top two easily. 

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I popped onto the Norwich Forum after Saturday's game (as you do!) and there is a very similar thread on there, worrying about their defensive play. 

It did make me think that we all want to have our cake and eat it.

Maybe we can be a free flowing attacking outfit and still keep it watertight at the back, but we'd need money of Liverpool proportions to do it. 

I think at our level we can either be the Rowett Pulis type defensive outfit or the Mac Lampard type attacking one.

I know which I prefer personally but I also think we stand more chance defensively this year because we've got a bit of youthful speed on our side. 

I am not too worried about the goals against column and am a little more concerned about goals for, to be honest.

Although we didn’t do too badly there in our last game! 

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Under McClaren we slowly evolved from a side that attacked and swept teams aside to a side that controlled games and would go for the jugular in bursts. So much so that we broke clean sheet records in 14/15 through keeping opposition at arms length rather than defending grittily.

I wonder if we will see a similar evolution under Lampard. 

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53 minutes ago, cannable said:

Under McClaren we slowly evolved from a side that attacked and swept teams aside to a side that controlled games and would go for the jugular in bursts. So much so that we broke clean sheet records in 14/15 through keeping opposition at arms length rather than defending grittily.

I wonder if we will see a similar evolution under Lampard. 

It worked well and I believe that's what the 433 system is intended to do. However this time around it feels different.. we are playing more direct which I like whereas McClarens style wasn't quite as direct. Let's face it defence has been an issue now for a fair while.

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Playing football at school, or in pub teams , you would be absolutely lambasted if you allowed a cross to get over when you were a full back. It was shameful . The utter lowest of the low. Your teamates would be scandalised and up in arms.

Wonder why it is different when you play the game today for a living ?

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9 minutes ago, BobbyD said:

Playing football at school, or in pub teams , you would be absolutely lambasted if you allowed a cross to get over when you were a full back. It was shameful . The utter lowest of the low. Your teamates would be scandalised and up in arms.

Wonder why it is different when you play the game today for a living ?

I think you must have played football with some pretty harsh team mates. Even the best full back in the world doesn't stop every cross. If you get beaten and allow it to happen too often then that's a different story. 

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The fact of the matter is, we haven’t shipped many goals this season, but we’ve almost always shipped at least one. Which is more of a problem than it looks, because these haven’t been consolations at the end of hammerings, they’ve been early goals in the first 20 minutes. We’ve conceded the first goal in more than half of our games this season I recall someone saying, that’s bloody relegation form and not what you would expect of a side in the top six. We have to be more alert for the full 90 mins, we seem to come out sometimes thinking we can sweep teams away with a single ball, causing us to constantly lose Possession. Of course some goals have come from defensive errors, we have to be better at stopping, and defending crosses, in our box for example. But many are ultimately due to us giving the ball away in a position which leaves us exposed, Purely through being lax or not thinking about the pass. 

Our goals conceded column will reduce, and importantly our goals scored column will increase, if we start looking after the ball better and be awake for the full 90. It’s that simple. Too often we try the wonder ball instead of sticking with our philopshy of patient play to try and create chances. Revert back to that style and the opposition won’t be able to create chances because we won’t hand them to them, and we’ll have far more chance of breaking them down and using our considerable attacking talent.

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32 minutes ago, BobbyD said:

Playing football at school, or in pub teams , you would be absolutely lambasted if you allowed a cross to get over when you were a full back. It was shameful . The utter lowest of the low. Your teamates would be scandalised and up in arms.

Wonder why it is different when you play the game today for a living ?

Different game now though, isn't it?

It's no longer enough to just defend as a full back, you have to make those runs up and down relentlessly all game, and support the attack whenever possible.

In those circumstances, unless you're one of the very best like Cafu or Ashley Cole or Roberto Carlos, your bound to be exposed one way or the other.

I guess Frank sees poor defending as a worthwhile trade off for what the full backs give us in attack.

 

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On 01/01/2019 at 01:37, angieram said:

I popped onto the Norwich Forum after Saturday's game (as you do!) and there is a very similar thread on there, worrying about their defensive play. 

It did make me think that we all want to have our cake and eat it.

Maybe we can be a free flowing attacking outfit and still keep it watertight at the back, but we'd need money of Liverpool proportions to do it. 

I think at our level we can either be the Rowett Pulis type defensive outfit or the Mac Lampard type attacking one.

I know which I prefer personally but I also think we stand more chance defensively this year because we've got a bit of youthful speed on our side. 

I am not too worried about the goals against column and am a little more concerned about goals for, to be honest.

Although we didn’t do too badly there in our last game! 

If there hadn’t been after conceding seven goals in two successive home games, I’d be worried for them.

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Just improving our game management would help. 

Any of our opponents will have some kind of spell in the game. We nearly always concede during these spells as we are rushing to counter attack. The forward players see their name making headlines. They'd be better just dropping behind the ball and trying to get a foot on it. Counter attacks present themselves but we try an turn any possession during these periods to a goal in a couple of passes or a dribble. Sometimes the opposition isn't even pushing that hard and are just having a spell of good possession but we will still be trying to break on them. Mount will be beyond the ball. The wingers don't see runners going at full backs they now only see the empty grass to run at. The midfield are trying to intercept too early and get turned out the game. 

I like the positivity but sometimes you have to dig in a bit, do the basics and feel your way back in. Holmes came on and started it vs Boro. He found he could actually carry the ball down the wing unchallenged but when he was in danger of losing it he was just dropping it off. Huddlestone is usually good for this too. 

Just got to recognise when the momentum is against us. 

Wilson is one of the worst offenders. He'll have a 40 yard shot or try a 20 yard aerial ball between 2 CB's in a period of the game where we're giving away chances and holding low possession. He will try and beat a man when support is with him. Just needs to do the basics until the belief or energy drains from the other team. Not do it 3 times in the opening 30 mins at Carrow Rd when we haven't been in their half for more than 2 passes. The counter isn't always on. 

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On 31/12/2018 at 17:17, Millenniumram said:

The fact of the matter is, we haven’t shipped many goals this season, but we’ve almost always shipped at least one. Which is more of a problem than it looks, because these haven’t been consolations at the end of hammerings, they’ve been early goals in the first 20 minutes. We’ve conceded the first goal in more than half of our games this season I recall someone saying, that’s bloody relegation form and not what you would expect of a side in the top six. We have to be more alert for the full 90 mins, we seem to come out sometimes thinking we can sweep teams away with a single ball, causing us to constantly lose Possession. Of course some goals have come from defensive errors, we have to be better at stopping, and defending crosses, in our box for example. But many are ultimately due to us giving the ball away in a position which leaves us exposed, Purely through being lax or not thinking about the pass. 

Our goals conceded column will reduce, and importantly our goals scored column will increase, if we start looking after the ball better and be awake for the full 90. It’s that simple. Too often we try the wonder ball instead of sticking with our philopshy of patient play to try and create chances. Revert back to that style and the opposition won’t be able to create chances because we won’t hand them to them, and we’ll have far more chance of breaking them down and using our considerable attacking talent.

Well if our goals conceded column reduces I’ll have to check the rules of football Millennium, that would be some going. I know there’s an ‘own goal’ panel but if there’s a ‘that goal conceded doesn’t count anymore’ panel bring it on, we may end the season with single figures against us ???

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On 31/12/2018 at 11:27, bcnram said:

It does need addressing, GD could be so cruscial on the final day. It isn't just the two central defenders although they are an issue, it is our carelessness in giving the ball away in positions where we are going to be punished.

Yes absolutely, a decent GD is potentially worth a point. 

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