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What did people really expect.


Curtains

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5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Sold Vydra and Wiemann for loads. 

That's just one side of the story though, isn't it? If we'd sold those two and brought nobody in then I'd be onboard with you.

Rowett getting the best out of Vydra last year was massive for us, which ever manager came in he would have gone to raise funds for the new manager. Weimann was an obvious one to offload, 2 million was a very good deal for us considering we paid only a tad more for him 3 years ago and in the main he was average at best. 

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21 minutes ago, David said:

I don’t see that to be honest, initial tinkering aside which has to be allowed with a new manger and team, changes have come mostly through suspension, injury or following a defeat/poor performance.

It can be a lose/lose situation, take the games following the cup ties we had. Change it and lose, shouldn’t have tinkered, doesn’t change it and why are we killing the players. Pretty sure if I look back at the match threads a few weeks ago there was calls to rest players as they look knackered.

Team selections can be a little like trial by media at times, take the Daily Mail with the front page headline named the couple morons before they were even charged, yesterday Waghorn may not have been fit enough to play the 90, how do we know without all the sports bra data.

When Lampard comes out and says it was a tactical decision to leave Waghorn out against Forest, that makes it easier to criticise, I would have had him in the team myself but there you go, but I think given the injuries and suspensions it’s a little harsh to call him a tinkerer right now.

 

If he is applying the team selection on sports data, it’s still tinkering. Marriott not starting against BC, yet fit enough to be on the bench, Waghorn in and out, Malone and Forsyth alternating. Wilson in the middle some games, the wing others, BJ starting suddenly, are all examples of his tinkering.

This is not being critical, I think testing players is a good idea, it’s a long term aim, however it could be argued it’s not working at the moment.

 

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2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

But mate look at Leeds budget and Forest for that matter

Leeds haven't done anything special. Forest are doing what we tried a few years back, they're the exception. The rest have parachute payments. 

I think we take our 'budget' for granted. We're in the second tier and can happily reinvest 15 million. That ain't shoestring. 

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4 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

If he is applying the team selection on sports data, it’s still tinkering. Marriott not starting against BC, yet fit enough to be on the bench, Waghorn in and out, Malone and Forsyth alternating. Wilson in the middle some games, the wing others, BJ starting suddenly, are all examples of his tinkering.

This is not being critical, I think testing players is a good idea, it’s a long term aim, however it could be argued it’s not working at the moment.

 

If you’re going to call a manager a tinkerer for leaving a striker out when we have a difficult away game 4 days later over Christmas I guess I can’t argue with that. 

Comes down to our definition of tinkerer.

Wilson was moved into the middle when Johnson I believe went off injured, may have been Bryson. Thought it was nuts at the time but actually led to us playing some of our best football and he stuck with it for the next few games.

I also don’t recall Malone and Forsyth being tinkered that much, we’ve played 7 games since Forsyth was injured, Malone has started 11 games for us.

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15 minutes ago, David said:

If you’re going to call a manager a tinkerer for leaving a striker out when we have a difficult away game 4 days later over Christmas I guess I can’t argue with that. 

Comes down to our definition of tinkerer.

Wilson was moved into the middle when Johnson I believe went off injured, may have been Bryson. Thought it was nuts at the time but actually led to us playing some of our best football and he stuck with it for the next few games.

I also don’t recall Malone and Forsyth being tinkered that much, we’ve played 7 games since Forsyth was injured, Malone has started 11 games for us.

So he changed the team to get the best points return from the last two games, that to me is tinkering.

Forysth and Malone were alternating earlier in the season, I can remember both having good games and being on the bench the next.

Didnt Wilson play more centrally against BC and then revert back to the wing again for Sheffield Utd, not sure on that, however if we agree we have performed well with him in that position why change him back to the wing again?

Once again I highlight I’m not being critical, just a reflection on what I believe he does. The injuries haven’t helped, TL for me is the second biggest miss, the first being a mobile Def midfielder.

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59 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Well I expected him to get sacked by Christmas, so to me, he's doing really well.

He faces a big challenge now. We've got injury problems, our form has dipped, any or all of the loan players could go back and he's getting mardy at journalists. If he gets through the next few weeks he'll be a damn good manager. If he doesn't he'll be a pundit.

Did you really think he'd do so bad that he'd be sacked by Christmas?

Also, what's your definition of "getting through" and "the next few weeks"?

 

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5 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

So he changed the team to get the best points return from the last two games, that to me is tinkering.

Forysth and Malone were alternating earlier in the season, I can remember both having good games and being on the bench the next.

Didnt Wilson play more centrally against BC and then revert back to the wing again for Sheffield Utd, not sure on that, however if we agree we have performed well with him in that position why change him back to the wing again?

Once again I highlight I’m not being critical, just a reflection on what I believe he does. The injuries haven’t helped, TL for me is the second biggest miss, the first being a mobile Def midfielder.

Wilson did play in the middle against Bristol City, why he reverted not sure, need to know what's going on with Waghorn, was he not fit enough to play the 90? Been injured himself recently, possible they didn't feel he was up to it.

I haven't agreed with all the team selections though, as you say we miss Lawrence for all the stick he gets.

Mount, Wilson, Lawrence, Marriott and Waghorn for me is our best midfield/forward line. 

Try to avoid the Bryson discussions as I've been down there before. I fail to see what he brings to this team at the minute, will leave that there.

Team selections haven't been wild enough to send me into a rage yet like others though. The 2pm tantrums can be just as bad as the 5pm hindsights.

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13 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Did you really think he'd do so bad that he'd be sacked by Christmas?

Also, what's your definition of "getting through" and "the next few weeks"?

 

I thought he'd either be so bad he'd be sacked early on, or so good that Bournemouth/West Ham/Chelsea would have come in for him and he'd be gone.

Getting through is not getting sacked or resigning. The next few games are tough and I reckon teams playing 433 always struggle in the second half of the season as teams tend to have worked the system out. We could easily now go into a serious slide which Mel won't stand for. More experienced managers than Frank have failed from this position. If Frank can sort this out and keep us in the top 6, he'll be a very good manager. 

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10 hours ago, Curtains said:

Mate I went to Man U and WBA we were good but also at times In those  games we were under the cosh.  I watched Chelsea game in Tenerife and our own goals were bizarre but we played well at times. 

We are work in progress.

 

Yes, with more than 10 seasons outside the PL, we are definitely work in progress.

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10 hours ago, RamNut said:

Unless a team is good enough for top 2 then its not really ready for promotion. The play offs create false hope that a team is good enough to go up when - the reality is ? - that any such team would get shafted in thePrem. 

 

I was almost ready to pooh-pooh that statement... but thought it best to spend at least 4 mins googling it first!

You're not far off, to be fair.

According to the link below, from 2016, 36% of teams who are promoted automatically from Champs to prem come straight back down again.

That figure rises considerably to 61% of Play off winners (coming straight back down again).

 

Personally though, I'm still excited by the fact that a whopping 39% of Championship Play Off winners survive that first season in the Prem.  That's more than enough to keep me positive!

I also believe that historically 99.9% of all Premiership teams reach 12 points at some stage of the season, but I can't find stats to back that up!

 

https://www.thestatszone.com/promotion-and-relegation-in-english-football

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