Standard of officiating

[AndyinLiverpool]

8 minutes ago, DRBee said:

We were poor , no doubt so no excuse for loss, but 'officials didn't get too much wrong' is way off.

We could easily have conceded from the free kick awarded from the 'back pass'. Why didn't the lino see it, as it was in his half? These days linos seem to wait to see what the ref says first before showing their decision.

Keith Stroud was worse in match against Forest, again getting some big decisions wrong but also totally inconsistent throughout the match.

'Players just need to get on with it' is what a fussy school teacher might say , but if the players are bothered they will react and complain, always have and always will . No problem with them complaining about the back pass as they had clearly seen the Utd player touch the ball and knew the decision was wrong.

Are you sure about that?

[Gritstone Ram]

11 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

In a very uncharitable, non-Christmassy mood, I'm consistently appalled by the standard of of officiating in the Championship. Today (away at Sheffield United) Marriott was twice through on goal in the centre of the pitch and wrongly given offside. At 0-0 when that first goal makes all the difference...

Then, every single person in the ground and on the pitch, bar the referee, saw Billy Sharp touch the ball back to Carson yet he gives a backpass, and books Carson and Nugent as a result. One of many occasions when the referee lost control of the game. 

Five yellow cards, Tomori for being elbowed in the face by Sharp, Keogh for trying to get on with the game, Carson and Nugent for the backpass that wasn't and then Harry Wilson. 

Last match a stonewall penalty not given early in on against the gumps for the kick high into Lawrence's chest. 

It's clear we need VAR and quickly. But we don't half seem to have utterly dreadful officials.

The bit that got me yesterday was when a United player deliberately kicked the ball away to waste time and the ref didn’t even speak to him. Surely this sort of thing needs clamping down on and was more a booking than Carsons.

[Rambalin]

7 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

Ref could have given the SU pen, not much contact but seen them given

both offsides were onside sky cameras showed that but don’t blame the officials as they were difficult 

Keogh was an idiot and deserved to get booked 

we lost our heads after the love in for the ball after the goal

the ref should have consulted someone about the ‘back pass’ thank god they didn’t score from it 

SU deserved their victory 

saw some good signs in the first half, the best we have played for a while. 

Lamps please play Waghorn 

get behind the team as we are going places never never give up COYRs 

Pretty much agree with you only thing to add is there were two clear reds for Sheffield United.The first Sharp kicking out at Keogh about twenty seconds into the second half....The second Norwood nasty studs up challenge on Mount which the ref gave a yellow for.

 

..

[Andicis]

7 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Surely benefit of doubt only applies if the officials aren't sure not just because it was very tight. I'm sure the assistant referee would agree it was tight but, in his opinion, he was just offside. 

But how can the linesman be sure, in real time, when it is so tight? 

[Tamworthram]

36 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But how can the linesman be sure, in real time, when it is so tight? 

I'm not saying that he can be sure just that he believes that to be the case. In my opinion, benefit of doubt is applied only when he can't make his mind up and therefore has to opt in favour of either the attacker or the defender.

[rammieib]

To be fair, VAR may help get the decision right more frequently on the offside, if/when the linesmen are told not to put their flag up and see what happens.

Thing is, that will lead to a more fiasco point of say the player doesn't score but it goes out for a corner with a save and then you score from the corner. You can't review the original offside. The complaints will simply change tact from the fans.

Otherwise as one poster has said, VAR won't have changed anything else. The melee in the goal, Keogh will still have got booked (any of them could have done) but VAR won't have over ruled it. He told the Sheff Utd player off verbally for kicking ball in stand but I can guarantee any fan on here would have a go at the ref if that was the other way around and a second booking for a player and will call it soft.

Reality is, referees today are in a no win situation. We're far too critical on them generally. I don't know what the pay is in the Championship - I will guess around £300-£400 a game? Well, that's not a lot in the grand scheme of things. I think they do a pretty good job by and large.

Final point, decisions which go for us are often taken for granted.

[ossieram]

9 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Thought the officials got most things right other than not giving them a pen and sending off Tomori and the free kick for the back pass......certainly had nothing to do with the defeat and Sheffield Utd deserving the 3 points.

Why? I thought they had changed the rules and if a penalty is given, it's only a yellow card.

[Norman]

7 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I wonder if anyone knows the law relating to goalkeepers picking up the ball. It's Law 12 if you are interested. Page 103 of the current set of Laws.

Come on then, Andy. 

Let me have it. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but it's the internet, so I won't admit it, even if you post Law 12.

[plymouthram]

17 hours ago, rammieib said:

Sky angles - both offside correct.

Bookings for dissent - can't argue with that.

Did he mess the backpass up - sure. 

Did we potentially get away with one with Tomori - probably. (If you're going to claim Marriotts as a penalty you have to be consistent and say Tomori pulled back McGoldrick).

Wilson definite booking.

So to be fair, I don't think the officials got too much wrong. One big decision went for us, one went against us.

Players need to just get on with it - we wasted time which was needed to try and get goals back. Same with when we scored - quick celebration and back in place. By the time the celebration is over, the ball will be back anyway.

 

The bookings for dissent, would'nt happen if the Ref had been better. Looking at the Tomori/Mcgoldrick incident, you can see him already leaning forward ready to fall as soon as he felt Tomori's arm touch him and that was due to him stopping and looking for a penalty. The club should appeal against Carson's booking because that was wrong. Being on sky live won't do this Ref any favours and he might never be in charge of a championship fixture for the rest of the season. Keogh getting booked for being the closest player to the ball after it hit the net and then being grabbed by the keeper because he was retrieving the ball, come on, this Ref lost control of the game and the mass of players grapling away. It was a cop out by just booking one player, if he wanted to show authority, at least book the keeper for sparking off that incident.

[plymouthram]

8 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I wonder if anyone knows the law relating to goalkeepers picking up the ball. It's Law 12 if you are interested. Page 103 of the current set of Laws.

If you know the address of the Ref, could you send it to him. Derby should appeal against the Carson booking at least.

[Rev]

8 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I wonder if anyone knows the law relating to goalkeepers picking up the ball. It's Law 12 if you are interested. Page 103 of the current set of Laws.

That law doesn't apply if there has been an interceding touch on the ball by an opposition player, which there was.

[The Key Club King]

Here we go again with the referees are awful debate. Referees are not getting worse. Players cheat all the time and contest every decision at every level of football. The players cheat and people blame the referees for getting things wrong. 

The problem is that we as fans tolerate cheating players. We ignore our own players cheating as "getting the rub of the green" and blame the refs when it goes against us. 

As the great Half Man Half Biscuit sang in the Referee's Alphabet;

"And the Z
Well the Z could be for Zidane, Zico, Zola, Zubizarreta, Zoff
Even Zondervan
But is in fact for the zest with which we approach our work
Without this zest for the game, we wouldn’t become refs
And without refs, well – zero

Wouldn’t it be fun
If they gave the ref a gun"

Admittedly, the last line is a bit over the top. 

[Wolfie20]

40 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

If you know the address of the Ref, could you send it to him. Derby should appeal against the Carson booking at least.

Fairly sure yellow cards can't be appealed.

Re the overall standard of refereeing. In the last 5 years I reckon the best 10% have got better, the remaining 90% have got worse.

[Sparkle]

I don’t think they are any better in the premiership either - there is a reason there wasn’t any of them at the last World Cup! 

[BobbyD]

20 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

In a very uncharitable, non-Christmassy mood, I'm consistently appalled by the standard of of officiating in the Championship. Today (away at Sheffield United) Marriott was twice through on goal in the centre of the pitch and wrongly given offside. At 0-0 when that first goal makes all the difference...

Then, every single person in the ground and on the pitch, bar the referee, saw Billy Sharp touch the ball back to Carson yet he gives a backpass, and books Carson and Nugent as a result. One of many occasions when the referee lost control of the game. 

Five yellow cards, Tomori for being elbowed in the face by Sharp, Keogh for trying to get on with the game, Carson and Nugent for the backpass that wasn't and then Harry Wilson. 

Last match a stonewall penalty not given early in on against the gumps for the kick high into Lawrence's chest. 

It's clear we need VAR and quickly. But we don't half seem to have utterly dreadful officials.

We cant seriously be blaming the ref for losing that game ? 

Sheff U were miles better than us in every respect and fully deserved to win

Sure, refs can be poor but come on, it pretty well evens out over time

what about the tomori penalty decision that went in our favour ? Independant sky commentators couldnt believe it ! 

This bleating about how we get the thin end of the wedge from officials . You dont seem to hear it when we are playing well and winning games. Only when we are awful and not winning. Funny that.

[rammieib]

1 hour ago, plymouthram said:

The bookings for dissent, would'nt happen if the Ref had been better. Looking at the Tomori/Mcgoldrick incident, you can see him already leaning forward ready to fall as soon as he felt Tomori's arm touch him and that was due to him stopping and looking for a penalty. The club should appeal against Carson's booking because that was wrong. Being on sky live won't do this Ref any favours and he might never be in charge of a championship fixture for the rest of the season. Keogh getting booked for being the closest player to the ball after it hit the net and then being grabbed by the keeper because he was retrieving the ball, come on, this Ref lost control of the game and the mass of players grapling away. It was a cop out by just booking one player, if he wanted to show authority, at least book the keeper for sparking off that incident.

You're joking right? Basically what you're saying is that dissent is allowed if a ref makes a bad decision? Come on, get a grip. Decisions go for you and against you in a game. So a player, you must be able to control your emotions. Are you saying if you broke my leg in a bad tackle, it's perfectly fair for someone to break your leg in another bad tackle? Absolutely not.

If a ref makes a bad decision, accept it, move on, get organised and prepare for it. Without VAR, it won't get overturned so all you're doing is putting yourself on a booking which then affects the rest of the game.

Appeal a booking - well as I'm sure you know, you can't appeal yellows unless it's mistaken identity but yeah, let's appeal cards for dissent based on a refs bad decision.

Get a grip, accept you win some, you lose some, everyone is human. Be honest, on the tele (or at the game if you were the result), did you see the deflection as I certainly didn't. It was only on a reply from one of the perfectly position cameras that it would be seen. The referee had one chance to see it and missed it. He is human.

Also to the poster that said penalties are only yellow cards - again, not true. If the referee deems it was a genuine attempt at the ball then it is only a yellow. Therefore a pull back should be a red if deemed a pull back.

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

Come on then, Andy. 

Let me have it. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but it's the internet, so I won't admit it, even if you post Law 12.

Take nobody’s word for it. 

Which is code for look it up yourself. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, reveldevil said:

That law doesn't apply if there has been an interceding touch on the ball by an opposition player, which there was.

Can you give me the reference please? Which page is it on?

[rammieib]

16 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Can you give me the reference please? Which page is it on?

http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

Here is the link, but you need to understand referees interpretations of the rules which basically state any deflection negates the deliberate act.

[Rev]

25 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Can you give me the reference please? Which page is it on?

The United States Soccer Federation (USSF) has provided the following guidance on how this offence should be judged by referees:

The offense rests on three events occurring in the following sequence:

The ball is kicked (played with the foot, not the knee, thigh, or shin) by a teammate of the goalkeeper,

This action is deemed to be deliberate, rather than a deflection or miskick, and

The goalkeeper handles the ball directly (no intervening touch of play of the ball by anyone else)

From Wiki, which I normally wouldn't quote, but the source is a part of the rule taking body aligned to the IFFB.