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Out of their skin (racism again but please don't remove the thread)


ronnieronalde

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On 15/12/2018 at 12:25, BaaLocks said:

4: Sol Campbell is not making excuses, he is making a point. Lampard, Gerard, Terry and others get fast tracked into high profle roles while he can only find a role at Macclesfield. It might be because he doesn't interview well or has a reputation but the paucity of black managers is an absoutely valid point he is making with personal reference.

I wasn't aware that being assistant manager at a second division club was considered a high profile role. If only Darren Moore had been afforded that same opportunity. Curse that institutionally racist English football system!

I posted the following previously, but it bears repeating;

"Does anyone have figures for the number of "BME" coaches actually qualified? I tried searching, but the most recent I can find is from 2012 (chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.farenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-speak-with-one-voice.pdf) Page 7, point 2. BME individuals represented 4.8% of total UEFA A qualified coaches. This is the qualification required to manage at football league level. The current percentage of BME managers in the English league is 5 of 92 or 5.4%, and that's not even adjusting for the 22 foreign managers currently working in the English leagues."

As of 2012 the proportion of black managers is slightly higher than the percentage black applicants with the correct qualifications.

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It's still sad the lengths that people go to to try and deny there is anything to see here.

Nothing is going to change until people start understanding that accepting institutional racism exists DOES NOT mean that they are  personally being accused of racism. You have nothing to defend yourself against

Nor does positive discrimination hurt you in any way

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1 minute ago, StivePesley said:

It's still sad the lengths that people go to to try and deny there is anything to see here.

Nothing is going to change until people start understanding that accepting institutional racism exists DOES NOT mean that they are  personally being accused of racism. You have nothing to defend yourself against

Nor does positive discrimination hurt you in any way

And there we have it.... Looking up actual relevant data on the subject is apparently going to great lengths and engaging in denial. Just listen and believe. We'll change employment law based entirely on whim and feelings, facts and statistics are racist when they don't align with my worldview.

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23 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Nor does positive discrimination hurt you in any way

http://www.thefa.com/get-involved/coach/coach-bursary

"Funding has been made available by the football authorities into one bursary fund to enable applicants to gain coaching qualifications and coaching experience with opportunities to observe top coaches and to benefit from mentoring. 

Selection
• COACH operates an open application process and a panel made up of the funding bodies will select applicants against the criteria to the programme
• Applications are restricted to individuals from the Black, Asian Minority ethnic (BAME) communities"

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18 minutes ago, Anon said:

And there we have it.... Looking up actual relevant data on the subject is apparently going to great lengths and engaging in denial. 

Because you framed it as if it meant that everything was OK. 

5.4% of managers is still miles short of the UK demographics.

So yes - it's a "fact" that the number of managers is now roughly in line with the number of qualified coaches, and that's good. It shows that we're moving in the right direction. And that's thanks to increased awareness of institutional racism. 

But you aren't stopping to ask why there are so few qualified coaches in the first place?

In fact you then went on to criticise the FA for running a special bursary to encourage more BAME people into coaching?!

Amusingly though, you did seem to be offering it as a counter-example against my comment that positive discrimination doesn't harm anyone.  LOL - I'm sure the 95% of white qualified coaches are furious that they were never given this opportunity to qualify as a coach...erm hang on

 

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Racism is definitely still an issue in society, but there are some situations where race is being used to hide behind the real issue.

Take Sol Campbell, why is he starting out at Macclesfield? I don’t think it’s anything to do with his skin colour.

The majority of former players have to work their way up and prove themselves. If Harry Kewell and Kevin Nolan are doing it, why is it beneath Sol Campbell?

In the cases where some former players are fast tracked, it isn’t because they are better coaches than Campbell. It has nothing to do with what you know or the colour of your skin.

It’s largely because football is a business and clubs have to consider who will connect with the fan base, who will buy them time, who will bring in money, and more than anything, who will bring eyes to the club.

So we have countless examples of former players getting roles in football based on their high profile, based on their contacts, or on their affliation with the club.

Where does race come into it? I think it’s easier to say it’s racism and play the victim, rather than show an understanding of the sport.

There are many inequalities in football, but very rarely does it come down to race.

Lampard, Gerrard and Terry are not benefiting from white privilege. They are benefiting from the privilege of being high profile footballers and modern day icons. Much in the same way Thierry Henry and Clarence Seedorf were able to land the jobs at Monaco and AC Milan.

Similarly, if Rio Ferdinand wanted to go into management tomorrow, I guarantee you there’d be clubs higher up the pyramid than Macclesfield taking an interest.

Is Sol Campbell a needle mover? I certainly don’t think there would have been the same media frenzy if he had rocked up at PP in June.

But Campbell has his chance now. If he does a good job at Macclesfield, he’ll quickly rise up.

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Just to point out, I believe the Sky Sports v Sterling chatter that @McLovin was referring to that @BaaLocks called out around the Gun Tattoo stuff, was that Sterling said in his statement, "I made a promise to myself I would never touch a gun in my lifetime”, but Sky Sports reported it as, "I made a promise to myself I would never touch a gun again in my lifetime”- which has significantly different connotations, and upset people understandably.

Although, that being said - I think it was genuinely an honest mistake from the writer. I think he heard the quote aloud and got confused "a gun" and "again" are not drastically different sounding terms.

The accusation was that the writer had assumed that's what Sterling meant, which implied a racist stereotype in the writer's mind that Sterling must've used a gun in the past because he's black. Which, to be honest, I think is quite a reasonable jump for all those people to make - but I don't believe to be true in this case.

 

 

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1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

Because you framed it as if it meant that everything was OK. 

5.4% of managers is still miles short of the UK demographics.

So yes - it's a "fact" that the number of managers is now roughly in line with the number of qualified coaches, and that's good. It shows that we're moving in the right direction. And that's thanks to increased awareness of institutional racism. 

But you aren't stopping to ask why there are so few qualified coaches in the first place?

In fact you then went on to criticise the FA for running a special bursary to encourage more BAME people into coaching?!

Amusingly though, you did seem to be offering it as a counter-example against my comment that positive discrimination doesn't harm anyone.  LOL - I'm sure the 95% of white qualified coaches are furious that they were never given this opportunity to qualify as a coach...erm hang on

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

It's not miles out. According to the last census. It's 0.1% out.

Unless you're happy with the insinuation that the reason "BAME" people aren't getting into coaching is because they're all too poor to afford the course fees I don't see what the bursary programme solves.

If you don't see how a bursary specifically not available to sections of society due to nothing other than the colour of their skin harms them, then I don't know what to tell you.

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13 minutes ago, Anon said:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

It's not miles out. According to the last census. It's 0.1% out.

Unless you're happy with the insinuation that the reason "BAME" people aren't getting into coaching is because they're all too poor to afford the course fees I don't see what the bursary programme solves.

If you don't see how a bursary specifically not available to sections of society due to nothing other than the colour of their skin harms them, then I don't know what to tell you.

I guess it depends on your stance regarding equality vs equity

7B19753A-5D48-42AF-87E8-284FDB70B3A4.png

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5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I guess it depends on your stance regarding equality vs equity

7B19753A-5D48-42AF-87E8-284FDB70B3A4.png

I don't think white people are inherently "taller" than black people. In fact I don't think race has any bearing on "height".

What a regressive position for me to hold.

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2 hours ago, Anon said:

posted the following previously, but it bears repeating;

 "Does anyone have figures for the number of "BME" coaches actually qualified? I tried searching, but the most recent I can find is from 2012 (chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.farenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-speak-with-one-voice.pdf) Page 7, point 2. BME individuals represented 4.8% of total UEFA A qualified coaches. This is the qualification required to manage at football league level. The current percentage of BME managers in the English league is 5 of 92 or 5.4%, and that's not even adjusting for the 22 foreign managers currently working in the English leagues."

As of 2012 the proportion of black managers is slightly higher than the percentage black applicants with the correct qualifications.

BAME percentage of UEFA Pro Licence holders is 7.7%, and 7% of UEFA A Licences as of 2015. 

BAME percentage in senior coaching roles i.e. manager, first-team coach, assistant manager, head-coach, academy director, U18/21 head coach is around 4.5% as of early 2018 but this obviously changes continuously. 

BAME percentage of players is 25% in 2017.

BAME percentage in "senior administration roles" in clubs is <1% in 2016.

BAME percentage of population as a whole is 14% in 2011.

Mostly from the following report:

"Ethnic minorities and coaching in elite level football in England: 2016 update: a report and recommendations from the Sports People's Think Tank in association with the Fare network and the University of Loughborough" Bradbury (2016).

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45 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

BAME percentage of UEFA Pro Licence holders is 7.7%, and 7% of UEFA A Licences as of 2015. 

BAME percentage in senior coaching roles i.e. manager, first-team coach, assistant manager, head-coach, academy director, U18/21 head coach is around 4.5% as of early 2018 but this obviously changes continuously. 

BAME percentage of players is 25% in 2017.

BAME percentage in "senior administration roles" in clubs is <1% in 2016.

BAME percentage of population as a whole is 14% in 2011.

Mostly from the following report:

"Ethnic minorities and coaching in elite level football in England: 2016 update: a report and recommendations from the Sports People's Think Tank in association with the Fare network and the University of Loughborough" Bradbury (2016).

Thanks for the updated information. I would've expected to see a rise in BAME licence holders and I expect to see it continually increase as the BAME percentage of retired footballers rises year on year. Hopefully we should see a roughly corresponding rise in BAME managers.

The % of current BAME players has 0 relation to the number of managers.

That 14% population includes british asian which, when we're talking about football managers, isn't worth including. Maybe I'm forgetting all those former british asian footballers now looking for coaching roles, but I reckon I could count that list on two hands.

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2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

It has nothing to do with what you know or the colour of your skin.

It’s largely because football is a business and clubs have to consider who will connect with the fan base

The second statement pretty much contradicts the first. 

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51 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

The second statement pretty much contradicts the first. 

How does it?

The point I am making there is that often the people that get into good positions are ones that have some kind of link to the club.

If they played for the club and were a fans’ favourite, it’s the kind of link that might give them more time or patience from the fans.

Take Nigel Clough. He had done a wonderful job at Burton. But he wasn’t appointed manager here on the strength of his record there. There were also more sentimental and romantic reasons at play.

Similarly with Stuart Pearce when he was in charge at Forest. It was the romance and the sentiment involved that swung it in his favour.

It wouldn’t surprise me if better managers were overlooked in both situations.

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10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if better managers were overlooked in both situations.

Fairy nuff, and I take your point. 

I'm not going to waste any more energy arguing about institutional racism to people on here who don't see it, but your comment suggested that you were overlooking the rather obvious possibility that race might play a part in which managers would be deemed likely to appeal to fans. 

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7 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

I'm not going to waste any more energy arguing about institutional racism to people on here who don't see it

Me neither. The sad thing is that I can deal with people that don't see it, because by it's very definition it's hard to see. My pity is saved for the people who start furiously googling statistics to backup their weird theory that it doesn't exist at all. 

I'm out.

Off to the match

 

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51 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

How does it?

The point I am making there is that often the people that get into good positions are ones that have some kind of link to the club.

If they played for the club and were a fans’ favourite, it’s the kind of link that might give them more time or patience from the fans.

Take Nigel Clough. He had done a wonderful job at Burton. But he wasn’t appointed manager here on the strength of his record there. There were also more sentimental and romantic reasons at play.

Similarly with Stuart Pearce when he was in charge at Forest. It was the romance and the sentiment involved that swung it in his favour.

It wouldn’t surprise me if better managers were overlooked in both situations.

Or Darren Moore at West Brom. 

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2 hours ago, Anon said:

Thanks for the updated information. I would've expected to see a rise in BAME licence holders and I expect to see it continually increase as the BAME percentage of retired footballers rises year on year. Hopefully we should see a roughly corresponding rise in BAME managers.

The % of current BAME players has 0 relation to the number of managers.

That 14% population includes british asian which, when we're talking about football managers, isn't worth including. Maybe I'm forgetting all those former british asian footballers now looking for coaching roles, but I reckon I could count that list on two hands.

Each paragraph here is a direct contradiction of the one before. In the first you argue that there is an expected direct relation between the number of BAME players and managers. In the second you then say it isn't at all related. Then, in the third paragraph you say that we can discount British Asians on account of the fact there are no players of that ilk and so they are not worth including in the calculations.

I'm with @StivePesley, maybe time to watch the match.....

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