Racism.

[Dimmu]

1 minute ago, StringerBell said:

Nope. But what are we going to do about it?

 

 

Knowledge is the first step to change.

[StringerBell]

Just now, Lambchop said:

In the sense that white people in this country are often blind to the presence of racism because they don't experience it first hand.

It isn't racist to make that observation, and it's a well documented fact. 

I started typing and deleted. Im not going to bother.

I'll simply say people don't have opinions based on their race.

 

[StringerBell]

4 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

Knowledge is the first step to change.

To change conscious bias yes, but were talking about unconscious bias?

[ronnieronalde]

Probably my last post on the subject as well as it's going down a route I don't like.

First of all I think we're looking for racism so much that even in instances that may not be, it's dragged out.

The waterboarding comments are a good example of that. Waterboarding for goodness sakes, if that was waterboarding then there are a few premier league players who should be up in front of the geneva convention for their celebrations.  What have you seen that makes you honestly think it's waterboarding?

Secondly and perhaps more controversially, it's not meant to be, it's just me telling the truth as I see it, like always. 

It's not only white people who are racist. Racism exists everywhere across the world and it's all wrong.

People who are idiots are idiots whatever their skin colour.

[Dimmu]

1 minute ago, StringerBell said:

To change conscious bias yes, but were talking about unconscious bias?

Through those tests, the unconscious can become conscious. If not wanting to change, you can always choose not to. Then you'd only know a bit more of yourself and that's harmless.

[Spanish]

Is it not even slightly possible that the dunce had taken a banana to the match to eat, ate it  and then threw the skin.  Alternatively he stood there the whole game with a banana skin in the hope of throwing it, or he quickly stuffed a whole banana in his face before launching the skin.  As I said previously in the bad days on rare occasions some deluded racists threw whole bananas, because that was the point, throwing something edible not the skin. 

For the record I neither support nor condone any activity that is deemed to be racist.

[Spanish]

8 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Probably my last post on the subject as well as it's going down a route I don't like.

First of all I think we're looking for racism so much that even in instances that may not be, it's dragged out.

The waterboarding comments are a good example of that. Waterboarding for goodness sakes, if that was waterboarding then there are a few premier league players who should be up in front of the geneva convention for their celebrations.  What have you seen that makes you honestly think it's waterboarding?

Secondly and perhaps more controversially, it's not meant to be, it's just me telling the truth as I see it, like always. 

It's not only white people who are racist. Racism exists everywhere across the world and it's all wrong.

People who are idiots are idiots whatever their skin colour.

yep

 

i lived in the Bahamas, we had a cleaner who originated from Jamaica, she was stopped one day by our Bahamian security guards.  The explanation they gave me was they didn't like her 'dirty black skin'.  For the record the guards were not 'white' Bahamians.  I was actually lost for words and have never seen such blatant discrimination before or since.  Like you say whites are certainly not the sole purveyors of racism.

[StringerBell]

Just now, Dimmu said:

Through those tests, the unconscious can become conscious. If not wanting to change, you can always choose not to. Then you'd only know a bit more of yourself and that's harmless.

If the unconscious became conscious then what are we still to do about the unconscious bias?

I often don't act on my conscious thoughts never mind the unconscious ones. And I'm not going out of my way to treat certain people differently to alleviate for some thoughts I may or may not be having.

IAT's aren't reliable either

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-conscious/201706/is-implicit-bias-useful-scientific-concept%3famp

 

[Ghost of Clough]

17 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

The prevailing attitudes expressed every single time race or gender are mentioned. Plus I live in Derbyshire and I've been to Pride Park. Are you actually saying it isn't the case?

Utterly depressing, isn't it. 

"Full of white men"

Derbyshire: Just a guess but I reckon there's a fairly even number of men to women. I would also guess there are a few men who are not white. So we can conclude that there are in fact fewer white men than non-white men, and Derbyshire definitely isn't "full of white men".

Pride Park: When I go, I see a wide range of people. Men, women, boys, girls, white, non-white. Again, not full of white men (in my opinion), but most likely make up the largest demographic.

Not everyone on this forum are from Derbyshire or go regularly to games. You know we have posters from all over the world, some I would guess at not being white. You know we have a few posters who aren't men. I would also assume there are plenty others who haven't disclosed their gender or ethnicity to the rest of us. To say this forum is "full of white men" seems like a rash conclusion to make. Is it not perfectly reasonable to think there may be a lower (or higher) percentage of non white men using this forum?

Largest demographic? Most likely

"Full of"? No

 

[Smyth_18]

So people honestly believe this guy had just finished eating a banana and just happened to discard of it by throwing it on to the pitch, just as a black player scored?

It's blatant.

Regarding racial debate, there is absolutely no difference between white or black, apart from the colour of the skin. It is that simple.

[StringerBell]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

"Full of white men"

Derbyshire: Just a guess but I reckon there's a fairly even number of men to women. I would also guess there are a few men who are not white. So we can conclude that there are in fact fewer white men than non-white men, and Derbyshire definitely isn't "full of white men".

Pride Park: When I go, I see a wide range of people. Men, women, boys, girls, white, non-white. Again, not full of white men (in my opinion), but most likely make up the largest demographic.

Not everyone on this forum are from Derbyshire or go regularly to games. You know we have posters from all over the world, some I would guess at not being white. You know we have a few posters who aren't men. I would also assume there are plenty others who haven't disclosed their gender or ethnicity to the rest of us. To say this forum is "full of white men" seems like a rash conclusion to make. Is it not perfectly reasonable to think there may be a lower (or higher) percentage of non white men using this forum?

Largest demographic? Most likely

"Full of"? No

 

More to the point, so what if it was?

[Mucker1884]

40 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

I challenge all of you to take for example this one (there are other good ones too):

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/iat/

When it comes to gender and racial equality, most people know what their opinions are. But what about unconscious attitudes and associations? Would you be surprised to learn, for example, that you unconsciously favor one gender or racial group over another?

I'll be brave (or stupid) and go first...

Naturally, with the already proven stupidity out of the way, now would maybe be a good time to admit I have absolutely no idea how to do a screen shot!

I can however, copy and paste, and my results (for the race test... I haven't done the gender test), are as follows:

Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for African American compared to European American.

The table below shows the percentage of other online test takers receiving various test results, so you can compare yourself with other people. Your results have been corrected for the order in which you performed the dual category associations.

Test Result% of Test Takers

Strong automatic preference for White people48%

Moderate automatic preference for White people13%

Slight automatic preference for White people12%

Little or no automatic preference12%

Slight automatic preference for Black people6%

Moderate automatic preference for Black people4%

Strong automatic preference for Black people6%

If your test results showed a preference for a certain group, you may have a hidden, or unconscious, bias in favor of that group (if your results were "inconclusive," click here). The results of more than one million tests suggest that most people have unconscious biases. For example, nearly two out of three white Americans show a moderate or strong bias toward, or preference for, whites, as do nearly half of all black Americans.

Implicit associations are often at odds with our conscious attitudes and beliefs. This does not mean that one is more accurate than the other. Rather, it suggests that we can have two unique evaluations of the same concept -- one conscious and the other unconscious. If you are surprised or concerned about your test results, or if you would like to know more about the Implicit Association Test, please visit Frequently Asked Questions About the IAT.

 

Now, I'm the first to admit, I don't have clue as to what's going on, and I haven't the foggiest whether the above makes be a bad person or a good person... or a person that really doesn't matter to anybody!

I "think" it is suggesting I am lumped in with 6% of others that have taken the test?  I may be wrong?

What I do know, is that I am who I am, and I could never apologise for that.

Looking back, I would like to say that if the aforementioned banana thrower did so as a racist act, then of course I'd believe that to be a bad thing.  I take that for granted, but now realise none of you know me, so maybe I should have mentioned that (a lot!) earlier?

My original post on this thread was meant to neither condone or criticise such actions, but to question whether that (racist act) was the (proven) case, or whether it was a case of oppo player/banana/throw coincidence?  I've no idea whether this has now been confirmed one way or the other (As I've not "followed the story", but there were claims of racism right from the start... before any facts were known.

 

From previous posts, I also get the impression that a certain poster is castigating me for the very fact that my life has been unaffected by racism... therefore I must be racist... as if that is something I could control, and as if this is something that is purely my fault!

In which case, I confess to the following:

I must be sexist, because my life has similarly not been affected by sexual inequality/sexism.

I must be Claustrophobic, as I have never shown an interest to pot-holing.

I must  be Acrophobic, as I have never ventured up The Eiffel Tower, or stood on the edge of those cliffy mountain things in America.

I must be illiterate, as I always struggle to spell the word teniss!

I must be schizophrenic, as neither of us know WTF is now going on!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spanish]

7 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

So people honestly believe this guy had just finished eating a banana and just happened to discard of it by throwing it on to the pitch, just as a black player scored?

It's blatant.

Regarding racial debate, there is absolutely no difference between white or black, apart from the colour of the skin. It is that simple.

nope that's not what I said, I regret posting it now because if people have a set belief then there is little that anyone can say to temper it.  

[ronnieronalde]

4 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

So people honestly believe this guy had just finished eating a banana and just happened to discard of it by throwing it on to the pitch, just as a black player scored?

It's blatant.

Regarding racial debate, there is absolutely no difference between white or black, apart from the colour of the skin. It is that simple.

No, I think the guy knew what he was doing. I can't think anyone who throws a banana skin at a black player doesn't. 

I can't speak for others but i think I made it clear early on I think he should be banned for life, if he somehow manages to persuade legal people it wasn't racist then he should still be banned for life AND put on a course.

The rest of my views are general and not specific to this incident.

Racism is a disease and a blight on society.

[David]

1 hour ago, Lambchop said:

It's a forum full of white men. Anyone expressing non white men opinions is going to stand out. You're lucky I bother. 

We do not ask for fans ethnicity on registration.

Whilst you do have the option to select your gender in your profile, this is not required or used to build any statistical data.

The forum may largely be populated by white males, although it’s not a statement I could make without any data, if I don’t have the data, nobody does.

All I know is we have close to 7000 members, 600 of which are active in terms of posting or reacting to posts each month. A further 500 login each month but do not post, choose to read only.

On a forum which many users have not uploaded profile pictures of themselves and use anonymous usernames, I would argue that you are making assumptions based on the small number of members you regularly have heated interactions with in these types of debates.

It was easy to predict which members would be in this topic just by title on the homepage from the 600 who are active.

[Mucker1884]

19 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

So people honestly believe this guy had just finished eating a banana and just happened to discard of it by throwing it on to the pitch, just as a black player scored?

It's blatant.

Regarding racial debate, there is absolutely no difference between white or black, apart from the colour of the skin. It is that simple.

For my part, I don't know what to believe.  I ask again, has it (a deliberate racist act) been proven, or been admitted yet?

...Or was it pure coincidence that he happened to take a banana that particular day, for his mid-match snack, and unfortunately for him, the oppo scorer just happened to be non-white?  Genuine question.

I'll castigate him here and now for the missile throwing... along with the others, but at this stage, I'm still unaware whether racism was involved.

Furthermore... if this act is so blatantly racist, what's to be said regarding the other (unidentified, as far as I'm aware?) "missiles" that were reportedly thrown at the same time?  I ask again... what if the fella had chosen an apple that day, instead?

Do we have a proven racist act, or do we have too many people jumping to conclusions?

 

Oh... and for the record, Yes, I am a middle aged white male Brit, so to Lambchop, I say on that score "Well played, that man"!

[Smyth_18]

14 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

 

  I ask again... what if the fella had chosen an apple that day, instead?

 

I don't understand your point. He didn't take an apple, he took a banana. There is a history in football of fans throwing bananas at black players in a form of racial assault. The player who scored happened to be black. If i had a banana skin and planned on discarding of it, that would be the very last place and moment i would consider doing it. Maybe place it under my seat?

I honestly don't know how it could possibly be more racist?

[Spanish]

2 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

I don't understand your point. He didn't take an apple, he took a banana. There is a history in football of fans throwing bananas at black players in a form of racial assault. The player who scored happened to be black. If i had a banana skin and planned on discarding of it, that would be the very last place and moment i would consider doing it. Maybe place it under my seat?

I honestly don't know how it could possibly be more racist?

throwing a whole banana?

making monkey noises?

blacking up and pretending to be Hamilton's family?

 

there will be some who will feel it is clear racist action (which it may be) and some that have doubts.  Just want the Sun to do some investigation to find out he is some sort of scrote with form in the area of racism

[Smyth_18]

One quote i find very strange..

“I am not racist whatsoever. I am actually a Greek Cypriot. I am 100 per cent not a racist. I swear on my kids' lives that I am not that kind of guy."

How is that backing himself up in any way, shape or from? Greece is well known for racism towards black athletes. Djibril Cisse's wife was scared to go to his games because of the widespread issue there.

[McRainy]

44 minutes ago, David said:

I would argue that you are making assumptions based on the small number of members you regularly have heated interactions with in these types of debates.

When racism is discussed as a topic, the views of people of colour are notable by their absence in the comments.

Granted it's possible that there are 500 reading in silence, but it seems unlikely.