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20 hours ago, Lambchop said:

 My opinion is that racism and other forms of discrimination are wrong, and I'm not going to dilute or compromise that view for the sake of fitting in.

Of course it is - but it is for everyone else (hopefully) on here too.

Where I take issue with your stance:

I was bullied for about 10 of my school years - mostly by my "friends". The reasons:

1. For being chubby for most of my childhood

2. For having a stammer

3. For living on a farm (seriously uncool in very middle class Baslow, then Bakewell schools)

4. For having free school dinners (see above)

5. For being smart

 

And yet in your eyes, because I've never experienced racism directly, I'm complicit in the discrimination of others and part of the problem.

BS of the highest order, I'm afraid.

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8 hours ago, cstand said:

Yes Really.

Trevor Sinclair was convicted of racism towards a police officer after being arrested for drink driving in Blackpool earlier this year. Do I think he is a racist no he is married to a white woman and was drunk when he made his racist remarks.   He is however a victim of the left wing propaganda machine of no reverse racism,  white privilege, white fragility, only black people get arrested campaign which has only been invented to divide the people along racial lines to prove that non white people are victims of racism everyday and that voting for socialism is the only way out of this problem . People who use this tactic to gain votes are disgusting.

Kind of promised myself I'd not get into it with folk on the forum again but this did make me chuckle. By your reckoning, poor ickle Trev, gets arrested for driving while pissed out of his head, claims it's racism even though he's been breath tested and proven to be over the limit, is so offended by these racist cops not allowing him to evade prosecution (don't you know who I am, I'm Trevor Fookin Sinclair!) that he himself racially abuses them all the way back to the station, takes a piss in their vehicle on the way, then racially abuses the cops responsible for booking him in.... and by your way of thinking, HE'S THE VICTIM! I'm lolling bigtime at the rest of your post too, but given politics are off the forum menu, I'll not comment on the 'left wing propaganda machine of no reverse racism' (WTAF are you on about!?!) that led to an utterly blameless Trevor losing his license, other than to say that conspiracy theories aside, Trevor is clearly a massive tit who got precisely what he deserved. 

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1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

Life time ban all along. 3 years isn't going to change their view on this matter.

Place a life time ban on all racism, violence or any other offensive, abusive and threatening behaviour and maybe just maybe these idiots will get the message.

No place in any sport.

Banter is one thing.

Agree there should be a significant ban, just think people should be given the chance to feel remorse and be better people. 

I do think as per a previous post that if a fan is to be banned for life etc why is a 4 game ban enough for a player found guilty of the same offence. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

And yet in your eyes, because I've never experienced racism directly, I'm complicit in the discrimination of others and part of the problem.

Once again, it's the failure to understand the difference between structural and personal racism.

You know what it's like to be personally bullied, you don't know what it's like to belong to a race which has almost universally been regarded and treated as inferior for the whole of history.

You don't know what it's like to live in a world where every institution, and every situation you ever have to deal with, is based on assumptions about your intelligence, your criminality, your very humanity, because of the colour of your skin.

If fat people from Derbyshire farms suffered the same history of slavery and thin supremacy you might have a point, but they don't, and it's frankly absurd to compare the two. 

The playing field for black people is so slanted against them, even now, that we have to take active steps to be aware of, and address that fact.

So yes, being at the other end of the playing field does give you advantage, whether you realise it or not. 

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36 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Agree there should be a significant ban, just think people should be given the chance to feel remorse and be better people. 

I do think as per a previous post that if a fan is to be banned for life etc why is a 4 game ban enough for a player found guilty of the same offence. 

 

I agreed with you earlier in this thread and I'll agree again, lifetime bans are too severe - people commit worse crimes and get let out of prison eventually.

Off the top of my head maybe a 10 year ban, reduced to 5 for successfully completing an anti-racism course, further reduced to 3 years if some sort of anti-racism community service is also undertaken. 

Lifetime bans just shift the problem elsewhere, tackle the problem and give people the chance to grow and mature, motivate them to become better people not discard them and allow their prejudices to fester.

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You're a smart guy Wolfie and you know that's not what's being implied. Bullying is bullying irrespective of creed or colour and your own bad experiences are no less significant than anybody else's, least to my way of thinking. Equally, nobody could sensibly argue that you, or anyone else for that matter, are actively complicit because you've not been subject to racial abuse yourself, literally nobody. Where the subject becomes murkier is whether overlooking racism or turning a blind eye is in itself inherently racist. I don't believe it is, personally. In fact I don't think it even comes close. We've all got our issues to deal with and sometimes they leave little spare bandwidth for caring about others, strangers especially. To assume that the only reason folk don't get involved is because they are racist is a massive stretch for me. I wish folk would take a more proactive role but would it be reasonable to EXPECT them to? I'm unsure.

The flipside to that line of thought is, I'm stealing Jefferson's, or maybe Lincoln's words here, 'Evil prevails while good men look away' - that argument is pretty compelling and very hard to counter but it's also a moral conundrum that everybody faces. Where folk like me get (probably unnecessarily) feisty is when folk pretend the problem doesn't exist in the first place. To my way of thinking, that most certainly does render folk complicit and you'll struggle to persuade me otherwise. I don't expect folk to fight on my behalf, but don't fookin tell me there's no fight to be had, is how I'd summarise my stance!

All in all, I do think that this has been an interesting thread and one where folk have talked far more openly on the subject than on prior occasions. There’s way more commonality than I’d always assumed and I’m pleased to find out I was wrong about some folk. Perhaps browbeating others of a different mindset (a bad habit of mine) merely encourages them to play out the part I or others project on them, or worse still, hardens negative resolve. I think there's probably validity to that argument and it's certainly given me pause for thought. 

Anyway, I hope this is received in the spirit intended. I upset half the forum on the weekend and am keen to avoid a repeat!

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