Jacob Butterfield - Joined Bradford City on loan

[JoeDerby]

16 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

He has the ability to play that killer pass, yeah, the issue however is that he normally chooses a sideways or backwards pass instead...

Also when Huddlestone is in the side, anyone else's passing ability is going to pail in comparison and, with the recognition that Bryson is there for the energy to compensate for Huddlestone's lack of mobility and to enable Mount to roam, where does Butterfield fit in this system exactly?

He's only played the negative pass when he's been in the wrong area of the pitch - which is exactly my point, he's been played in the wrong position and been criticised for it. He doesn't want to be sat deep controlling the play like Huddlestone does. In my eyes, he's a better player in getting in behind the oppositions midfield - in more advanced area of the pitch, sliding passes into the strikers or wide players, he's much more creative than Bryson and do think against teams that are going to sit deep and let us have the ball - he would offer much more than Bryson does. 

[YorkshireRam]

4 hours ago, JoeDerby said:

He's only played the negative pass when he's been in the wrong area of the pitch - which is exactly my point, he's been played in the wrong position and been criticised for it. He doesn't want to be sat deep controlling the play like Huddlestone does. In my eyes, he's a better player in getting in behind the oppositions midfield - in more advanced area of the pitch, sliding passes into the strikers or wide players, he's much more creative than Bryson and do think against teams that are going to sit deep and let us have the ball - he would offer much more than Bryson does. 

That's where I disagree because he's nowhere near as mobile and my point was that is exactly why Bryson is starting currently. Huddlestone is the quarterback, picking passes and screening the defence while Mount is the playmaker linking midfield to attack; Bryson's purpose is to do all the running to link Hudds and Mount together. Butterfield categorically cannot do this and Mount is a better playmaker so still struggling to see how he'd improve the current team/system

[Smyth_18]

On 10/12/2018 at 12:12, JoeDerby said:

I think I'm the only football fan in the world that rates Butterfield and probably the Huddersfield fans too.

I wish he could be given a chance under Lamps, he looked a class player when he first arrived, obviously took a big knock in confidence from our own fans and Wednesday fans but he has been played out of position at both clubs.

He was much better for us in a midfield 3 when he had the freedom in the final third to go and play. he's struggled in more defensive roles. He doesn't have the energy/legs Lampard demands from the two more attacking midfield players but he can play the killer pass that can open teams up. He's technically good. I think he has more to offer than Bryson now. Personal opinion, of course. 

He doesn't deserve the stick he's received at all. I'm actually quite embarrassed by it all. Hope he proves the haters wrong.

Queue the comment saying 'Butterfield, is that you?' ?

I actually completely agree with every part of it Jacob.

[JoeDerby]

33 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

That's where I disagree because he's nowhere near as mobile and my point was that is exactly why Bryson is starting currently. Huddlestone is the quarterback, picking passes and screening the defence while Mount is the playmaker linking midfield to attack; Bryson's purpose is to do all the running to link Hudds and Mount together. Butterfield categorically cannot do this and Mount is a better playmaker so still struggling to see how he'd improve the current team/system

I just think against teams that we can't break down, technical ability is worth much more than whatever legs Bryson has left, which is about 70% of the Bryson from 13/14 season. 

[YorkshireRam]

26 minutes ago, JoeDerby said:

I just think against teams that we can't break down, technical ability is worth much more than whatever legs Bryson has left, which is about 70% of the Bryson from 13/14 season. 

I agree that Bryson isn't as good as he was and I also think there's arguably a better option for this system, I'm just not sure it's Butterfield. Funnily enough I think Evans might make that spot his own as he seems to balance defensive cover with a good eye for a pass which may compliment both Mount and Hudds far better. Alternatively, Ethan Ampadu (if we get him) would definitely be able to do a job there.

Just seems to me that if Huddlestone is playing, the one trait that is absolutely necessary in whoever is alongside him is mobility; Mount is often much further forward and Huddlestone distinctly lacks pace so a runner is required to provide support.

[therealhantsram]

21 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I agree that Bryson isn't as good as he was and I also think there's arguably a better option for this system, I'm just not sure it's Butterfield. Funnily enough I think Evans might make that spot his own as he seems to balance defensive cover with a good eye for a pass which may compliment both Mount and Hudds far better. Alternatively, Ethan Ampadu (if we get him) would definitely be able to do a job there.

I agree with your analysis here. but I'd go further. I think Evans was bought specifically as understudy / backup for Bryson.

Butterfield, despite his technical ability, is too slow and ponderous for Lampard's Rams.

[BramcoteRam84]

5 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

I agree with your analysis here. but I'd go further. I think Evans was bought specifically as understudy / backup for Bryson.

Butterfield, despite his technical ability, is too slow and ponderous for Lampard's Rams.

Bang on. He can’t play 4-3-3 (and don’t say he got 8 goals in the clement/wassall season), he’s never had the engine, he can’t tackle, takes too many touches doesn’t look up enough. Him and Johnson coming into the midfield was a big reason why Chris Martin started to become isolated up front. 

He has good technique undoubtedly, quick feet and skilful but he was the wrong fit for the Derby and certainly couldn’t do anything in this team now. He’s never justified the £4m price tag, don’t blame him - I’m sure a team playing him in the right position in the right system (not sure what that is) could get a decent player on their hands as Huddersfield had.

[JoeDerby]

12 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Bang on. He can’t play 4-3-3 (and don’t say he got 8 goals in the clement/wassall season), he’s never had the engine, he can’t tackle, takes too many touches doesn’t look up enough. Him and Johnson coming into the midfield was a big reason why Chris Martin started to become isolated up front. 

He has good technique undoubtedly, quick feet and skilful but he was the wrong fit for the Derby and certainly couldn’t do anything in this team now. He’s never justified the £4m price tag, don’t blame him - I’m sure a team playing him in the right position in the right system (not sure what that is) could get a decent player on their hands as Huddersfield had.

He can absolutely play 4-3-3. Please give your reasons why? You don't need a engine to play in a 3 man midfield, Will Hughes is the perfect example of this. The Butterfield we signed was fast thinking, linked play together nicely, played neat passes in behind that open teams up and had an eye for goal.

 

And I believe Evans is a holding midfielder (can also play as a CB) and was purchased to play in the role where Huddlestone is playing. He's never been an attacking player?

[cheron85]

2 hours ago, JoeDerby said:

He can absolutely play 4-3-3. 

That is true - There are many and varied ways of playing 4-3-3 and I have no doubt a player with Butterfield's ability can play it

14 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Him and Johnson coming into the midfield was a big reason why Chris Martin started to become isolated up front.

But that is also true

When Bryson and Hendrick played with Martin he had constant support from the midfield - Both Johnson and Butterfield play deeper and didn't give Martin the same support - Bryson used to overlap all the time which is when he got all those goals (admittedly the following season McClaren had him sitting deeper because we didn't have a proper DM which hampered his play quite a bit)

Butterfield is obviously a talented player - But he's been screwed by the merry-go-round of managers we've had - Especially since 3 of them have been fairly anti-football - He was never going to fit into Rowett's "slogger or clogger" mould and Lampard obviously wants to carve his own squad relatively from scratch

I suspect he'll give us a good run for our money when we play against him later in the season

[JoeDerby]

7 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

That is true - There are many and varied ways of playing 4-3-3 and I have no doubt a player with Butterfield's ability can play it

But that is also true

When Bryson and Hendrick played with Martin he had constant support from the midfield - Both Johnson and Butterfield play deeper and didn't give Martin the same support - Bryson used to overlap all the time which is when he got all those goals (admittedly the following season McClaren had him sitting deeper because we didn't have a proper DM which hampered his play quite a bit)

Butterfield is obviously a talented player - But he's been screwed by the merry-go-round of managers we've had - Especially since 3 of them have been fairly anti-football - He was never going to fit into Rowett's "slogger or clogger" mould and Lampard obviously wants to carve his own squad relatively from scratch

I suspect he'll give us a good run for our money when we play against him later in the season

But Martin isn't here anymore? Marriott is quite the opposite of Martin and will make clever little runs in behind the back line where as Martin looked to play with his back to call and bring other players in to play, which is where Bryson got all of his success under McClaren and is probably why he isn't as effective now.

This is where my point of having a player with better technical ability is coming in, somebody who can make the passes further up field to slide the ball in behind the defence? Something I don't think Bryson has the ability to do.

 

[YorkshireRam]

15 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Bang on. He can’t play 4-3-3 (and don’t say he got 8 goals in the clement/wassall season), he’s never had the engine, he can’t tackle, takes too many touches doesn’t look up enough. Him and Johnson coming into the midfield was a big reason why Chris Martin started to become isolated up front. 

He has good technique undoubtedly, quick feet and skilful but he was the wrong fit for the Derby and certainly couldn’t do anything in this team now. He’s never justified the £4m price tag, don’t blame him - I’m sure a team playing him in the right position in the right system (not sure what that is) could get a decent player on their hands as Huddersfield had.

I know for a fact that we paid a lot more for him than that. In the last bid we had rejected, that was around what we offered to pay upfront so will be a significantly larger overall figure...

[cheron85]

4 minutes ago, JoeDerby said:

But Martin isn't here anymore? Marriott is quite the opposite of Martin and will make clever little runs in behind the back line where as Martin looked to play with his back to call and bring other players in to play, which is where Bryson got all of his success under McClaren and is probably why he isn't as effective now.

This is where my point of having a player with better technical ability is coming in, somebody who can make the passes further up field to slide the ball in behind the defence? Something I don't think Bryson has the ability to do.

We have that though - Mount

As with most things the best football team is made up of a selection of players with different but complementary talents - We already have a whole raft of players (Mount, Wilson, Lawrence, Waghorn etc) who do that - Plus Huddlestone who can do it from pretty much anywhere on the park (I swear that boy could play a through ball to a striker from inside his own box...)

What we need to balance that is a hard working safety player - Bryson is tidy, smart and energetic - He's part of every attack and every defence - He isn't over-complex but he's very tidy and his close control and short passing is excellent

I understand you obviously like Butterfield - And I have pretty much the same level of passion about where Thorne is - But the simple equation is that Mount is currently doing the Butterfield role and he's much better at it

[JoeDerby]

8 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

We have that though - Mount

As with most things the best football team is made up of a selection of players with different but complementary talents - We already have a whole raft of players (Mount, Wilson, Lawrence, Waghorn etc) who do that - Plus Huddlestone who can do it from pretty much anywhere on the park (I swear that boy could play a through ball to a striker from inside his own box...)

What we need to balance that is a hard working safety player - Bryson is tidy, smart and energetic - He's part of every attack and every defence - He isn't over-complex but he's very tidy and his close control and short passing is excellent

I understand you obviously like Butterfield - And I have pretty much the same level of passion about where Thorne is - But the simple equation is that Mount is currently doing the Butterfield role and he's much better at it

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I love Bryson as much as every Derby fan does. I just think this season we have been better when he hasn't been in the side and he hasn't been as involved as I would have liked. We have arguable looked best without him in the side (West Brom, Middlesborough, Chelsea, Hull cup) are the ones that stick out most. So is the hard working Bryson kind of player really that valuable? or is he just a fan favourite that could be replaced with more skill, ability?

[cheron85]

2 hours ago, JoeDerby said:

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I love Bryson as much as every Derby fan does. I just think this season we have been better when he hasn't been in the side and he hasn't been as involved as I would have liked. We have arguable looked best without him in the side (West Brom, Middlesborough, Chelsea, Hull cup) are the ones that stick out most. So is the hard working Bryson kind of player really that valuable? or is he just a fan favourite that could be replaced with more skill, ability?

I'm not sure it's that simple - From my perspective on it anyway - West Brom and Chelsea came at us and that's where we thrive - If an opponent plays open, attack minded football we do well because that's what we want to play as well - Hull put out an extremely weak side in the cup against us (as we saw in the very next game)

If you were making the case that Holmes should be played instead of Bryson I might be more persuaded - But I think Butterfield would be trying to do the same job as Mount and they'd potentially both be looking for the same positions in the middle

[ossieram]

Has he gone yet?

 

[Barney1991]

I also think we have played better without Bryson in the side. Everyone says his energy and running does good for the side but I look at him and I have been to every game this season and I just don't see what energy people are talking about he looks knackered even before half time and there isn't much pace in him anymore. For example there was a breakaway first half and the ball went out wide and Bryson was running for it yet Ashley Williams who is dog slow got there before him and put it out for a throw. I just don't see the value of him in there and would rather put Wilson in there and play waghorn on the right. Wilson plays so much better there and his 2 goals against Swansea were from the inside midfield role where he had drifted in and is wasted out wide for me. Also waghorn does the dirty side better than Wilson out wide and covers bogle loads which is where bogle gets caught out when played with Wilson as he doesn't get as much protection.

[Ramdale]

Agree with the above. Ill never slag Bryson off as he is a legend, but he isnt the same player anymore. Wilson was much more influential when playing centrally. The performances against Middlesbrough, West Brom & Chelsea were the most consistent performances of the season as a team and all came with Wilson playing centrally with Mount.

25 minutes ago, Barney1991 said:

I also think we have played better without Bryson in the side. Everyone says his energy and running does good for the side but I look at him and I have been to every game this season and I just don't see what energy people are talking about he looks knackered even before half time and there isn't much pace in him anymore. For example there was a breakaway first half and the ball went out wide and Bryson was running for it yet Ashley Williams who is dog slow got there before him and put it out for a throw. I just don't see the value of him in there and would rather put Wilson in there and play waghorn on the right. Wilson plays so much better there and his 2 goals against Swansea were from the inside midfield role where he had drifted in and is wasted out wide for me. Also waghorn does the dirty side better than Wilson out wide and covers bogle loads which is where bogle gets caught out when played with Wilson as he doesn't get as much protection.

 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

One of our best performances was against Man Utd or  possibly West Brom. What team did we play for them?

[JoeDerby]

10 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

One of our best performances was against Man Utd or  possibly West Brom. What team did we play for them?

West Brom -

1 Carson

37 Bogle

6 Keogh

5 Tomori

46 Malone

7 Wilson

44 Huddlestone

8 Mount

9 Waghorn

14 Marriott

10 Lawrence

 

 

United - 

1 Carson

37 Bogle

6 Keogh

5 Tomori

3 Forsyth

4 Bryson

15 Johnson

20 Bennett

8 Mount

7 Wilson

28 Nugent

[whiteroseram]

1 hour ago, JoeDerby said:

West Brom -

1 Carson

37 Bogle

6 Keogh

5 Tomori

46 Malone

7 Wilson

44 Huddlestone

8 Mount

9 Waghorn

14 Marriott

10 Lawrence

 

 

United - 

1 Carson

37 Bogle

6 Keogh

5 Tomori

3 Forsyth

4 Bryson

15 Johnson

20 Bennett

8 Mount

7 Wilson

28 Nugent

So are arguably best 2 performances were completely different teams. Not sure what to conclude from that