v Stoke City (A) Match Thread

[RamNut]

33 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Is bryso fit? Or was it lack of match sharpness? Been out since Sheff Utd hasn't he 4-5 weeks ago?

Is he fit? I should think he could outrun the butcher's dog.

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

8 hours ago, Boycie said:

I don’t get the Malone hate, yes he may get the blame for not stopping Ince getting to the ball first, but I think he did well going forward and got some good crosses in.

 

That’s the problem though isn’t it? This applies to both full backs actually, decent going forward but first and foremost they are defenders yet they can’t defend. 

[Boycie]

If they were the complete article they wouldn’t be here. Ones been tried in the prem and disappointed, the others still learning his trade and is doing a good job in my opinion.  Lampard shares that opinion too, and that’s good enough for me.

If Butland wasn’t in goal none of this stuff would be mentioned I doubt.

If only Marriotts first time flick had gone in off Butland, and Lawrence’s early 10 min had too, we'd all be happy.  Bloody football.

I can see Rowett snaking a win at PP too.

[Chester40]

Felt a similar scenario to the Villa game. Tried to do the right things but got 'out-professionaled'.

Too big, too canny, too much know-how...you could feel the tide turning and we didn't have the ability to keep the ball at rhe right time and take the sting out of the game.

The stats for most goals conceded from corners/crosses is also no surprise.  Carson just doesn't come out...he is rooted to the line so crosses just come direct to the 6yard line.

No support for Marriott....midfield was absent. Hudds has been amazing recently, misjudged to bring Johnson and Bryson in, both were poor. 

Saturday is very important now. Get straight back on track...against s team just begging to be spanked...let's not disappoint!!

[Anag Ram]

We had no cohesion in attack and players were too advanced to find room.

In defence we have major problems which have often been masked by Carson's saves.

We need to eke out a few wins before January when we can bring in some proper defenders. I would be tempted to add Pearce to the squad just to have someone who focusses purely on defending.

I think we forget this was going to be a learning season. Success brings expectation and expectation brings disappointment.

I'll be there on Saturday and we'll win.

[Papahet]

Really not getting the hype around Jayden Bogle. Seems to have been thrown straight in to please MM. Losing count how many times the lad is being dragged out of position.

The line up last night seemed very amateur and very Claudio "tinkerman" like at Chelsea, really no need for so many changes especially taking Huddlestone out and binning Wisdom and Joze..

 

[Srg]

Lampard needs to accept he got the selection wrong. It looked wrong before a ball was kicked and so it proved in the first half. You don't make a footballing team, and then change it to combat your shithouse opponents and expect to outdo them at their own game.

Davies, as good of a defender as he is, is terrible with the ball at his feet. We immediately become slow and ponderous when he plays because every team knows it and just let him have the ball and sit on Keogh, the full backs and the defensive midfielder. Then, to compound this, you stick Johnson in defensive midfield who can't come deep, receive it, and use it well. You're putting a weakness on top of a weakness.

Do not understand the Bogle hate. I wish he had a bit more confidence on taking a man on and he definitely needs to improve his crossing, but he made at least 3 excellent last ditch clearances in the first half and was comfortably the best player in the first 45.

Carson was truly abysmal, his worst performance for the club. Two shots he should have saved, and I think he gets a nosebleed if he leaves his line, so he chooses not to. Some of these issues we've seen before, even the goal against Wednesday was poor from him, but they've never really cost us a game before last night. I think it's time we were in the market for some proper competition for him. If he's no longer the shot stopper, he certainly isn't a commanding presence.

That game summed up why several of our players aren't where they need to be for us to truly be successful, and hopefully Frank learnt a lot from it. Carson, Davies, Johnson, Bryson et al, should all be on notice. Also, Waghorn maybe touched it twice in 20 mins?!

 

Just a special mention to stewards confiscating snakes and Stoke fans booing Davies being stretchered off. Lovely touches.

[IlsonDerby]

My disappointment last night was that we didn't stick to our principles. We weren't patient in build up, we didn't make the correct decisions and there was a complete lack of composure and quality in the final third. 

They were there for the taking. At 1-1 with our young team we should have just passed, passed, passed, switch play, pass pass pass, switch play. It would have worn them down and we'd have created more. We were far too naive with pushing too far forwards. 

 

Bryson particularly disappointed last night. Early in the second half when he just gave up on that ball down the right even though it was evidently going to stay in... he was also so so weak in the challenge in the run up to their first goal. That wasn't some big FXXXXr who went through him, it was Joe bleedin Allen. 

 

A little surprised at 5 changes as well. Never change a winning team unless you have to? Only just had an international break so most can't be that tired... 

[RamNut]

Stoke used ginger tit, allen and etebo to spoil, mix it and intimidate anything through the middle. 

i can just about remember the days when joe allen actually looked like a nice tidy footballer

But that is the snake's only tactic. 

Not exactly johan cryuff as a coach is he? 

 

[Marriot Ram99]

9 hours ago, angieram said:

Yes, Fozzy has been rubbish going forward this season; only got the four assists!

I do think Malone did ok tonight, played with urgency when he got the ball. Unfortunately for him, Stoke were very good defensively and were mopping up his crosses.

Assists aren't a good indicator of the bigger picture, he has the first touch of  a donkey and gives the ball away far too many times.

[Topram]

What was the need for that many changes???? Wisdom shouldn’t of been dropped nor Huddlestone 

[Marriot Ram99]

2 hours ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

That’s the problem though isn’t it? This applies to both full backs actually, decent going forward but first and foremost they are defenders yet they can’t defend. 

Lets face all 4 fullbacks we have and Olsson so 5 are equally inadequate for a team chasing promotion and if this is not addressed in January we will either finish midtable or scrape into the play offs like last season then loose in the play off semis .

[Van der MoodHoover]

43 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Stoke used ginger tit, allen and etebo to spoil, mix it and intimidate anything through the middle. 

i can just about remember the days when joe allen actually looked like a nice tidy footballer

But that is the snake's only tactic. 

Not exactly johan cryuff as a coach is he? 

 

If you read their forum that was their standard midfield. 3 ratters. 0 creativity. 

They were expecting us to run round and through. Youth and pace. Frank changed it presumably because we've struggled previously against this sort of team.

Nothing wrong with the thinking- just didnt work out. Individuals not doing as asked or just doing things poorly? Dunno.

It's disappointing and now another long term injury. It's turning into a horrible anus! ?

[ariotofmyown]

A few big moments didn't go our way and we lost.  They have the right players for a backs-to-the-wall 10 men fight. Fair play to them, I'm glad we are a different type of team.

3 points from 2 away games in 5 days if fine. 50% better than the 2 points Rowett would have aimed for last season.

[LeedsCityRam]

No arguments, Stoke deserved to win last night. After a bright first 10 mins from us, they were the better side until the sending off & then managed the game comfortably with 10 men.

I do agree with a lot of the comments about the line up - Johnson & Bryson were very ineffective and that lack of midfield presence meant Marriott saw very little quality. No doubting Johnson's bravery & ability in the air but we are a team that likes to play quick incisive football (at our best) - Johnson is literally the least capable squad player to make that happen. His touch is often poor, he's very slow to get a pass off & his passing accuracy is not good enough at this level. In addition, he isn't particularly mobile - credit at least to Lampard for bringing Huddlestone on at half time.

In general though our play was very insipid - too much sideways passing in front of Stoke & very little willingness to try & play between their lines of 4. I also lost count of the amount of heavy touches & misplaced passes - it killed forward momentum time & time again. Yes, the rain & their pressing was a factor but if we're going to be successful with this style, we have to be able to deal with all conditions & types of opposition.

Honourable mentions to Lawrence who I thought was our most dynamic attacking threat & Marriott for working tirelessly with very little support - speaks volumes that his one real opportunity hit the post. Also thought Malone looked threatening going forward - pretty sure he created more in open play than Mount & Wilson did.

[DavesaRam]

Well, we could have won that, but deep down a defeat was always on the cards, especially given the Rowetttttttt factor (extra "t"'s, so that if you soften the sound of the "t", it ends up sounding like a snake). It was also inevitable that Ince was going to score, and Sky played on the "ex-club" factor, but in reality I don't think it mattered that he had scored against his former club because I don't think he is loyal enough to bother about who he is playing for , or has played for.

We started really brightly and created the better chances in the first half, but Stoke's goal followed a period of pressure, and was their only real footballing move of the game so far. Maybe Carson should have saved it, but he did get his hand to the  ball, only for it to spin off and past him. Contrast that with Buckland's save from Marriott - he got his hand to it, but it was a bit of a desperate flailing around, and the ball could have gone anywhere. It went behind him and spun away from the line. A difference in luck, I reckon.

Buckland did make a number of other saves, although the shots that did get through to him were mostly straight at him, so he ended up with not too much to do, and he did his job well. Their second goal was simply poor defending, which we do tend to be rather good at from time to time.

Re the Johnson/Allen incident - there is no excuse for biting whatsoever, but what was Allen doing getting involved, as he was nowhere near the incident, and came charging in like a lunatic? Oh, and where did that bite mark on Johnson's neck come from? Two questions which no-one, including the Sky pundits, were asking last night. A few on this forum have raised the issue, though. OBviously this is the best forum to be on!

I was amazed that the ref produced a red card, particularly after the ref's assistant hadn't signalled anything at the offence which happened right under his nose. That is what the Derby players, Johnson in particular were protesting. The ref didn't do too bad, apart from letting far too much thuggery from Stoke go by, but he bottled it when Allen pulled Marriott back when the Rams striker would have been away and in on goal. It was a borderline red card in itself, but should have been a second yellow. Ironically, yet again when playing against a bunch of thugs we ended up with more yellow cards than the gorillas. How does that always happen?

Our goal was actually brilliant, and it wasn't simply down to Harry Wilson's abilities. It was a superbly worked training ground move. What baffles me is why Stoke either set the wall up with a huge gap in the middle, or allowed two Derby players to create that gap. Either way, you could see Buckland position and move himself for the ball through the gap, aided by Rams players both in the wall and in front of it all ducking down, while Wilson simply ignored the gap and sent the ball wide left right out of Buckland's reach. Brilliant!

In the end we were undone because we insisted on trying the "George Thorne pick-a-pass defence splitter" when it was obvious that it wasn't likely to work when the entire opposition team is in their own penalty area. Admittedly there were a lot of attempted passes which so very nearly came off, but we should have tried alternatives to mix things up a bit, especially as when we did go wide and try to cross in it cause Stoke trouble.

Ho hum. On to the next. Remember, we are a work in progress, and we are way ahead of where most of us expected us to be by now.

And remember - we aren't Stoke!! We thought it was bad under Rowett, but Stoke are even uglier than Woods' face.

[DRBee]

During our good spell and the time when we were in the carabao cup, Lampard stuck to the same team. We have had injuries but they do not explain the selection last night. Too many changes. Hopefully Huddlestone and Waghorn will be in the team on Saturday.

[LazloW]

On Saturday morning I would have happily taken two draws from these away games.  I'm sure I'm not alone in that.  Winning one and losing one leaves us one point better off, but any defeat seems to result in a bit of an overreaction (in the same way that many overreact to a win).  On paper Stoke are a better side than us, as were Villa.  Its a shame that we seem to have played them when they are living up to their reputations and expectations a bit more than earlier in the season... or perhaps we just didn't play very well.  At the same time, we are probably in a bit of a lull where initial enthusiasm and playing for the joy of the game are not getting the rewards they were.

FWIW I thought we created more than enough last night to get at least a point.  The post and some decent saves kept them in it.  Going down to 10 men isn't going to hurt a team like Stoke as much as some others because their entire game is based on soaking up pressure and hitting teams on the break, which they did well.  We have some defensive frailties, obviously but some of the comments are a bit OTT.  We still need to find a way of breaking teams like this down.  Perhaps one thing we are lacking is a 'unit' who we can plonk up front and aim things at (works alright for Man Utd and Fellani!).  Not necessarily a suggestion for the purest, but horses for courses 'n all that (p.s. I'm only suggesting this as a desperation move, not a fundamental shift in style... I like how we play... although I've said it before and I'll say it again, I couldn't care less how long a pass is as long as it is made with some form of positive intent)

[angieram]

2 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

Well, we could have won that, but deep down a defeat was always on the cards, especially given the Rowetttttttt factor (extra "t"'s, so that if you soften the sound of the "t", it ends up sounding like a snake). It was also inevitable that Ince was going to score, and Sky played on the "ex-club" factor, but in reality I don't think it mattered that he had scored against his former club because I don't think he is loyal enough to bother about who he is playing for , or has played for.

I was amazed that the ref produced a red card, particularly after the ref's assistant hadn't signalled anything at the offence which happened right under his nose. That is what the Derby players, Johnson in particular were protesting. The ref didn't do too bad, apart from letting far too much thuggery from Stoke go by, but he bottled it when Allen pulled Marriott back when the Rams striker would have been away and in on goal. It was a borderline red card in itself, but should have been a second yellow. Ironically, yet again when playing against a bunch of thugs we ended up with more yellow cards than the gorillas. How does that always happen?

I just wanted to pick up on a couple of points - I thought Tom Ince was quite respectful of the Derby fans - he applauded us both before and after the game. I was pleased that we reciprocated with our own applause that quickly drowned out the few boos. I also thought he was their most creative player and didn't notice the dives that some are talking about.

Your point about bookings is true - if we aren't getting the fouls we think we deserve we tend to dish out our own justice - and let's face it, we aren't very good at it! 

I know that I have only quoted bits, but good post. 

Butland was the difference last night.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Once was a bit divey not outrageous, but every time he was touched he did go down. 

Was annoyed the ref booked Lawrence for that though, tried to jump out the way.