bet365 the world has gone mad

[Wolfie]

16 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Low wages, high dividends.  I’m told that’s how these buggers get around it.

Grrrrrr.

 

12 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

If she's not finding loopholes, I think top whack is 45%. It;s a lot and weirdly coming from me I think it's too high.

I don't think the government should ever take more than a third. BUT they should take a third and not let people shirk. If they took a third off everyone (above an agreed minimum no tax paid income) they'd have a lot more wedge to play with than letting a lot of the super rich get away with murder.

Just had a quick Google and the effective tax rate on dividends is just over 30%.

So, she either pays 45% income tax or 30% dividend tax. With Corporation tax at 19%, surely it's better for society as a whole if she gets paid more?

Almost £40m greater tax take from her being paid instead of leaving it as profit.

 

[Mafiabob]

38 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I have a bit of an issue with gambling, in that it doesn't really create anything. I know there's plenty of industries where you could argue nothing gets created, but that 200m got made from other people's bad judgement - not from any entrepreneurship or clever actions. If a factory is efficient you take some raw materials and at the end of it convert them into something worth more than the sum of the parts. Fair play to Apple, they took an idea, built some second rate electronics and now sell it for a grand a time because that's what the mugs who buy it think it's value is. Gambling is just separating money from people whose judgement at predicting events is less successful than other people's judgement.

And 200m is obscene amounts of money - it's hard not to agree with that, I hope. You may feel it reasonable to pay one person figures like that, but morally as Ronnie says, it's a sum that can't possibly be seen as doing a good thing. Most people couldn't begin to comprehend a figure of money that high.

Ask the royal family if they morally happy taking tax payers money each year...... I’m no fan of royals, but I’ve got no choice where my tax goes...... I’ve got a choice if I don’t gamble.... I won’t delve into Mrs Coates tax history, like some are assuming about on here..... but she doesn’t earn a penny off me, a gambling addict. 

Addiction got bought up early in the thread, to emphasise the point about home much she makes..... I’m not going to lie, I’d imagine some of her fortune has been gained from people with gambling problems, all I can say is that industry is changing, albeit slowly with some, but at a faster pace with others..... there is more stuff around responsibility nowadays and there is change. I’ve been to Gibraltar delivering gambling harm education, and various places in the UK..... to think 5 years ago I would probably been laughed out of everything by the industry, they are now embracing the likes of me, YGAM, Epic and BetKnowMore..... stuff that can make a real difference. Cynics will day its all PR and for show..... but this education stuff really does go far.

[ronnieronalde]

9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

 

Just had a quick Google and the effective tax rate on dividends is just over 30%.

So, she either pays 45% income tax or 30% dividend tax. With Corporation tax at 19%, surely it's better for society as a whole if she gets paid more?

Almost £40m greater tax take from her being paid instead of leaving it as profit.

 

Neither of us can be sure one way or the other if she pays 45% on the full amount or not. Guess it depends If she does a Jimmy Carr or if she's decent and upstanding.

Her basic was 265 million, she also took a share of a 90 million dividend, 

You won't convince me that it's better for society if one person makes 265 million a year or 4000 people make 62,500 EACH, not a chance.

What If the government take her 45% and spend it on a cruise missile or put it toward invading Iraq, or give it to the DUP to secure their support, no benefit to society at all.

[Wolfie]

3 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Neither of us can be sure one way or the other if she pays 45% on the full amount or not. Guess it depends If she does a Jimmy Carr or if she's decent and upstanding.

Her basic was 265 million, she also took a share of a 90 million dividend, 

You won't convince me that it's better for society if one person makes 265 million a year or 4000 people make 62,500 EACH, not a chance.

What If the government take her 45% and spend it on a cruise missile or put it toward invading Iraq, or give it to the DUP to secure their support, no benefit to society at all.

But that would never happen outside of communism

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

But that would never happen outside of communism

Why not?

As I said way back on page 1 or 2, just imagine the good will she'd generate, the loyalty she'd garner and the respect from almost everyone universally if she accepted that last years 217 million basic plus 30 million dividend was actually enough to stretch over two years and she "donated" one years salary to her workforce. One year.

She can go back to paying herself 250 million again in 2019.

Imagine what that would do for the local economy with 4000 people with money to spend.

[Boycie]

[Mafiabob]

27 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Why not?

As I said way back on page 1 or 2, just imagine the good will she'd generate, the loyalty she'd garner and the respect from almost everyone universally if she accepted that last years 217 million basic plus 30 million dividend was actually enough to stretch over two years and she "donated" one years salary to her workforce. One year.

She can go back to paying herself 250 million again in 2019.

Imagine what that would do for the local economy with 4000 people with money to spend.

How do you not know she doesn’t donate already?

Why is it so “negative” she has all this cash? 

[ronnieronalde]

21 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Push the jealousy angle all you want Boycie bonnie lad. I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I'm used to that around here ?

Denise Coates personal wealth is just over £3 billion  (not taking into account her 2018 salary)

That's more than the entire GDP of the ten smallest countries by GDP worldwide. (Tuvalu, Nauru, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Palau, Federated States of Micronesia, Sao Tome and Principe, Tonga, Dominica, Comoros) Probably some lovely holiday's in there somewhere.

"Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the broadest quantitative measure of a nation's total economic activity. More specifically, GDP represents the monetary value of all goods and services produced within a nation's geographic borders over a specified period of time."

The population of those 10 countries is just over 1.5 million.

Tell me again why one person needs 265 million a year in basic salary (before dividends)

[Mafiabob]

23 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Push the jealousy angle all you want Boycie bonnie lad. I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I'm used to that around here ?

Denise Coates personal wealth is just over £3 billion  (not taking into account her 2018 salary)

That's more than the entire GDP of the ten smallest countries by GDP worldwide. (Tuvalu, Nauru, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Palau, Federated States of Micronesia, Sao Tome and Principe, Tonga, Dominica, Comoros) Probably some lovely holiday's in there somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

"Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the broadest quantitative measure of a nation's total economic activity. More specifically, GDP represents the monetary value of all goods and services produced within a nation's geographic borders over a specified period of time."

The population of those 10 countries is just over 1.5 million.

Tell me again why one person needs 265 million a year in basic salary (before dividends)

If I’m on ignore fair enough..... but if I’m not, I find it strange you’d converse with others on this issue instead of myself..... is it because I may know my onions on this a bit? I know I’m no expert, and I don’t pretend to be..... but this whole thread was set up with the purpose to bash someone who earns a lot of money, and smacks of envy and jealousy. I’m fair game for what I believe..... but I think you’ve overstated and overstretched on this a tad. ?

[Boycie]

come on mate, let’s hug it out.

If we were in the pub we’d all laugh at you and tell you to shurrup, and get the drinks in, including some Scottish Eggs.

 

 

[ronnieronalde]

9 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

If I’m on ignore fair enough..... but if I’m not, I find it strange you’d converse with others on this issue instead of myself..... is it because I may know my onions on this a bit? I know I’m no expert, and I don’t pretend to be..... but this whole thread was set up with the purpose to bash someone who earns a lot of money, and smacks of envy and jealousy. I’m fair game for what I believe..... but I think you’ve overstated and overstretched on this a tad. ?

you're not on ignore mate, I was hoping and waiting for you to post and I've read what you've said with real interest.

Not sure why I haven't replied directly, got my hands full fighting my corner ?

 

* edited to ask you and others to drop the envy and jealousy bit. I can't keep saying it's not jealousy without getting a bit narked by it now.

 

[ronnieronalde]

5 minutes ago, Boycie said:

come on mate, let’s hug it out.

If we were in the pub we’d all laugh at you and tell you to shurrup, and get the drinks in, including some Scottish Eggs.

 

 

You know me a bit by now Boycie. (and I'm getting where you're coming from a lot more these days, tried to edit the last reply to tell you the pic was class!!)

I'll only shut up when you all agree I'm right ?

I'm like a dog with a bone.

[Boycie]

Just keep away from my bone!

?

[Chester40]

I can't agree this opinion from @ronnieronalde is based on 'envy'. 

I get his logic.  If she had designed a product that did good/saved lives or was a technology product that people loved etc then naybe he would shrug and say its a lot of money but maybe they deserve it. 

This 'product' is purely based on taking something for nothing. I have a betting account but and very careful and am probably slightly up...but I never bet much. I can't say betting gives me much pleasure....only winning. 

A good proportion of this money is built on other people's misery.  Real people. Real families.

Sure people make their own choices, but some people(and their nearest and dearest) need protecting from themselves. The £250+m wage suggests the odds are heavily rigged and I hope the news gives people the head shake they need to see eventually they are going to be losing money they possibly haven't got.  

[Chester40]

I just think its very easy to say people have free will. But people dont bet thinking they are going to lose...they think they will do 'ok'..but the huge profits show they arent and lots of people must be losing big!. 

There are standards in other areas of business.  Where is the line of free will drawn??

The old person who has been charged a price they agree to for a household job..but are probably paying over the odds.

The lonely person giving money to some online charlatan who says they are at risk. 

The person who invests badly based on someone's professional advice.

Someone who takes unnecessary insurance on a electrical product.

Someone who doesnt read the smallprint and gets lumbered with a poor product. 

Obviously some things are illegal and others arent...but its a thin line as the PPI scandal shows. I just can't help thinking these huge profits illustrate on this occasion we have got the balance wrong here...and lots of people are suffering so one person can rake in an obscene wage.

[Ghost of Clough]

20 hours ago, RamNut said:

the betting aspect doesn't really bother me. I suspect that much of this betting activity is young people with disposable income just having a regular flutter, and ultimately people have to take personal responsibility for their own gambling.

What i am uncomfortable with is any individual making that sort of money - whether its her or mel or chairman of Leicester city or whoever. 

It doesn't seem like a good thing for society or the economy to have such a concentration of wealth. 

We could built 2 brand new hospitals, 20 new secondary schools or 50 brand new primary schools each year with that money.

It would take a lot of personal spending to get that money to trickle back through the economy. 

 

Uni students. The size of the bets. The regularity of the bets. The number of students gambling. This is a huge problem area. 

 

In regards to taking personal responsibility. From my own experience, you tend to know you have a problem and you know you should stop, but, you still feel compelled to do it. To simply say they should “take personal responsibility for the actions” is a bit niaive. For a lot of people (myself included), they won’t stop without some sort of ‘shock’ or until it’s not possible to continue. It shouldn’t be a case if things going to such an extreme.

In my case, I was at uni, and a few of my house mates would gamble online. I decided to join in, and apply the martingale strategy when playing roulette  Sky allowed bets between 1p and £1000 (I think). So using this strategy I’d have to guess incorrectly 17 times before I’m in trouble. Anyway, within 10 minutes in £500 up. Within 1 hour, I’m almost £3k up. The high from winning that much so quickly, so easily, wasn’t anything I had felt before. I come on this forum, brag about it a little, then get warned by Bris. Decide to spend my winnings on random stuff online, head out for the night and splash a little bit of my cash on getting absolutely shitfaced. A few days of hard studying go by, and I decide to return to the roulette wheel. A few minutes later I’m up an extra £500. 1 minute later, I get 17 reds in a row and I’ve lost £1.3k. It surely can’t happen again, so I bet £1k on black... and lose. The shock, the feeling after that, wasn’t something I wanted to repeat. One of the few times I can admit, Bris was right.

Then a couple years later, I found myself addicted to playing a specific game and buying in-app purchases. I didn’t spend anything at first. In fact, I would create an account, play for a few weeks, then sell it for £100 or so. I end up playing on one account for a month or so, and could sell it for about £2k. I wake up one morning and everything has been destroyed (now worthless. However, I know I could spend £100 and I’ll be able to make it worth that £2k again pretty quickly and then sell up. But, I was hooked and kept buying more packs and try to chase down top spot within the game. Within a 2 year window, I had wasted away around £20k playing this game. A year or so further down the line, I’m back at uni but still trying to play this game and I still feel compelled to spend. It took until I was £3k in debt, struggling to see how I was going to buy food for the next couple of days, and lying about when I’ll pay the month’s rent before I could stop myself - there was no possible way for me to spend more on that game. I needed help but was too embarrassed and scared to say anything to my friends, family, or girlfriend. The ‘help’ I received from my university was non-existent. They couldn’t assist me financially as I was paying cash in hand for the rent. I asked for help from one of the mental health counsellors. But he was of no benefit - he didn’t believe that anyone could become addicted to a game in the way I did.

I KNOW many other uni student who gambled more, lost much much, and bet more frequently. I KNOW there were loads of people spending more than me on that game, and there were people in much worse financial positions than me from playing that game. But, there was nothing to safeguard me from putting myself in those situations. I feel the awareness of the full range of addictions isn’t good enough. 

[Chester40]

Years ago a mate of mine had a brainwave during the rugby world cup. He showed us the betting slip for a match where odds were 2-5 on but one team was clearly better. So he had bet his entire grant of about £900 on it. 

We all thought it looked a good bet still. Then we realised it had a handicap...ie they needed to win by 10 points!!. 

Poor bloke almost had a heart attack. 

Dashed down the bookies and very fortunately gave him his money back.  

NB they won but didn't get the handicap.

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Uni students. The size of the bets. The regularity of the bets. The number of students gambling. This is a huge problem area. 

 

In regards to taking personal responsibility. From my own experience, you tend to know you have a problem and you know you should stop, but, you still feel compelled to do it. To simply say they should “take personal responsibility for the actions” is a bit niaive. For a lot of people (myself included), they won’t stop without some sort of ‘shock’ or until it’s not possible to continue. It shouldn’t be a case if things going to such an extreme.

In my case, I was at uni, and a few of my house mates would gamble online. I decided to join in, and apply the martingale strategy when playing roulette  Sky allowed bets between 1p and £1000 (I think). So using this strategy I’d have to guess incorrectly 17 times before I’m in trouble. Anyway, within 10 minutes in £500 up. Within 1 hour, I’m almost £3k up. The high from winning that much so quickly, so easily, wasn’t anything I had felt before. I come on this forum, brag about it a little, then get warned by Bris. Decide to spend my winnings on random stuff online, head out for the night and splash a little bit of my cash on getting absolutely shitfaced. A few days of hard studying go by, and I decide to return to the roulette wheel. A few minutes later I’m up an extra £500. 1 minute later, I get 17 reds in a row and I’ve lost £1.3k. It surely can’t happen again, so I bet £1k on black... and lose. The shock, the feeling after that, wasn’t something I wanted to repeat. One of the few times I can admit, Bris was right.

Then a couple years later, I found myself addicted to playing a specific game and buying in-app purchases. I didn’t spend anything at first. In fact, I would create an account, play for a few weeks, then sell it for £100 or so. I end up playing on one account for a month or so, and could sell it for about £2k. I wake up one morning and everything has been destroyed (now worthless. However, I know I could spend £100 and I’ll be able to make it worth that £2k again pretty quickly and then sell up. But, I was hooked and kept buying more packs and try to chase down top spot within the game. Within a 2 year window, I had wasted away around £20k playing this game. A year or so further down the line, I’m back at uni but still trying to play this game and I still feel compelled to spend. It took until I was £3k in debt, struggling to see how I was going to buy food for the next couple of days, and lying about when I’ll pay the month’s rent before I could stop myself - there was no possible way for me to spend more on that game. I needed help but was too embarrassed and scared to say anything to my friends, family, or girlfriend. The ‘help’ I received from my university was non-existent. They couldn’t assist me financially as I was paying cash in hand for the rent. I asked for help from one of the mental health counsellors. But he was of no benefit - he didn’t believe that anyone could become addicted to a game in the way I did.

I KNOW many other uni student who gambled more, lost much much, and bet more frequently. I KNOW there were loads of people spending more than me on that game, and there were people in much worse financial positions than me from playing that game. But, there was nothing to safeguard me from putting myself in those situations. I feel the awareness of the full range of addictions isn’t good enough. 

I can relate to what you’re saying, since I started the vlog in May 2016. I’ve had 600 people approximately message for help. 80 percent are males under 21.....

[ronnieronalde]

58 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Uni students. The size of the bets. The regularity of the bets. The number of students gambling. This is a huge problem area. 

 

In regards to taking personal responsibility. From my own experience, you tend to know you have a problem and you know you should stop, but, you still feel compelled to do it. To simply say they should “take personal responsibility for the actions” is a bit niaive. For a lot of people (myself included), they won’t stop without some sort of ‘shock’ or until it’s not possible to continue. It shouldn’t be a case if things going to such an extreme.

In my case, I was at uni, and a few of my house mates would gamble online. I decided to join in, and apply the martingale strategy when playing roulette  Sky allowed bets between 1p and £1000 (I think). So using this strategy I’d have to guess incorrectly 17 times before I’m in trouble. Anyway, within 10 minutes in £500 up. Within 1 hour, I’m almost £3k up. The high from winning that much so quickly, so easily, wasn’t anything I had felt before. I come on this forum, brag about it a little, then get warned by Bris. Decide to spend my winnings on random stuff online, head out for the night and splash a little bit of my cash on getting absolutely shitfaced. A few days of hard studying go by, and I decide to return to the roulette wheel. A few minutes later I’m up an extra £500. 1 minute later, I get 17 reds in a row and I’ve lost £1.3k. It surely can’t happen again, so I bet £1k on black... and lose. The shock, the feeling after that, wasn’t something I wanted to repeat. One of the few times I can admit, Bris was right.

Then a couple years later, I found myself addicted to playing a specific game and buying in-app purchases. I didn’t spend anything at first. In fact, I would create an account, play for a few weeks, then sell it for £100 or so. I end up playing on one account for a month or so, and could sell it for about £2k. I wake up one morning and everything has been destroyed (now worthless. However, I know I could spend £100 and I’ll be able to make it worth that £2k again pretty quickly and then sell up. But, I was hooked and kept buying more packs and try to chase down top spot within the game. Within a 2 year window, I had wasted away around £20k playing this game. A year or so further down the line, I’m back at uni but still trying to play this game and I still feel compelled to spend. It took until I was £3k in debt, struggling to see how I was going to buy food for the next couple of days, and lying about when I’ll pay the month’s rent before I could stop myself - there was no possible way for me to spend more on that game. I needed help but was too embarrassed and scared to say anything to my friends, family, or girlfriend. The ‘help’ I received from my university was non-existent. They couldn’t assist me financially as I was paying cash in hand for the rent. I asked for help from one of the mental health counsellors. But he was of no benefit - he didn’t believe that anyone could become addicted to a game in the way I did.

I KNOW many other uni student who gambled more, lost much much, and bet more frequently. I KNOW there were loads of people spending more than me on that game, and there were people in much worse financial positions than me from playing that game. But, there was nothing to safeguard me from putting myself in those situations. I feel the awareness of the full range of addictions isn’t good enough. 

Christ that's a brave thing to post mate, fair play. I hope you're getting the help you need. I know of a couple with similar experiences who've really spiralled, their whole world crashes down in front of them. I feel anyone saying "take responsibility for your actions" to a gambler is like telling a bloke with serious mental health issues to "man up" - a naiive and dangerous thing to do.

If they could just man up, they'd have done it.

If you look at bet365, they've got 20 million or so customers world wide, so to look purely at the profit figure, EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER they have needs to lose 33 quid to cover it. Sounds like nothing when you put i like that doesn't it?

Then you start thinking about how much of their 52 BILLION turnover they spend on wages ( 449m on directors salaries alone = another £20 loss for every single customer worldwide) another 4200 people to pay just in Stoke, then you've got Manchester and Gibraltar (where I believe they've moved a lot of their services)

Sponsorship deals. Marketing, rent of premises, services, IT equipment.

They don't want winners, I understand some will win of course but the gambling companies see that as the necessary evil rather than the goal. They're set up to take your money and the more they take, the happier they are.

Back to the point of her setting up an innovative new business. No she didn't she just made a dangerous business more accessible to the masses. I'm aware it's not all her doing by the way, just over stressing the point (ridiculously I know)

It's a bit like Escobar's young lad setting up an online cocaine supply shop using the proceeds of his dads old on the street distributor network and getting plaudits for his innovative thinking.

In fact, coke365,com is available to buy for 49.999 USD (I'm being serious, I just checked)

[ronnieronalde]

15 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

I can relate to what you’re saying, since I started the vlog in May 2016. I’ve had 600 people approximately message for help. 80 percent are males under 21.....

You're another I have huge respect for, in terms of your openness and honesty. I also absolutely LOVE the fact you've not just sat there writing or complaining but have got up off your arse and looked to make a difference. That takes balls of steel and a big heart.

You're the kind of person I can' t fail to admire from that side. Fair play to you.

I don't agree that it's a case of people taking responsibility for themselves as you have done, but I've never been in that position and have no direct experience of it so would bow down to your "expertise"

Keep up the good work pal and if there is ever anything I can do to support, let me know. I have a lot of time on my hands right now.