ariotofmyown Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 3 hours ago, tomsdubs said: Got mates that support other clubs so I sometimes go along for a day out. 3/2 fan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie20 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 For me the issue isn't about someone having an opinion which might be totally opposite to mine - that's always likely to happen and is needed to generate debate. It's posters (but thankfully not too many on here) who criticise an individual player or manager which is fair enough but then use every opportunity, regardless of the general theme of the thread, to further hammer home their agenda. Second half yesterday we were extremely poor - all over the place and lucky to get away with a 3 nil. That's my opinion but having said it, won't be repeating it over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramet Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 22 hours ago, 86 points said: This is a very long moan about moaners - those of a sensitive disposition, look away now.... Expectation Vs Entitlement We’ve all seen Gladiator, right? ‘Are you not entertained’, bellows Russell Crowe at the baying crowd, having ruthlessly dispatched half a dozen scary looking blokes in ever-increasingly, blood-curdling fashion. So, are we not entertained? Last season we were treated to around 40 games of what one might politely term, ‘pragmatic football’. There were maybe half a dozen games where we looked good but for the most part, we sat deep, took zero risks and tried to steal points. It really wasn’t great to watch but we had to admit (or some of us did) that it was more than passably effective given we ended the season a mere 45 minutes away from a play-off final before our total lack of ambition became our ultimate undoing. This season we’re a different side. The turgid, ponderous, route one approach has been swept aside in favour of a high-risk, high-tempo game where we simply try to blow teams away with fast, fluid football. In doing so, we always look to build from the back and we avoid humping balls down the channels, all in favour of one-touch interchanges between players who constantly run into spaces, while off the ball, we press like madmen until our legs fill with lactic acid and we can run no more. This approach brings a deal more entertainment value, but it does rather mean that when we are not fully on it, we can be ruthlessly exposed. Both Leeds and Villa, two sides whose personnel have been together for some time and mostly comprise of seasoned professionals, have done exactly that. To compound this, we’ve rather capitulated in both games, and yet quite tellingly, only in those two games. No other teams have really pulled us apart, with the few other lacklustre efforts generally being of our own making. Even then (and often from a goal down) we’ve stuck to our guns and salvaged wins and draws without as a result. That's progress. My expectations are quite simple this season. That we stick to the plan and try and play football the way it should be played. I sense that unless we are crippled with injuries, the only way this will not yield a play-off slot is if the players shrink back into their shells and begin to play with fear again. But here’s the thing - it’s not an entitlement – we have no divine right to success. Our net spend in a transformational season was around £1 million and Frank and Jody have only been here a quarter of a season with just a single transfer window in which to re-shape the team. To my mind, they’ve moved mountains, lowering the average age and the wage bill, promoting youth and setting about trying to build a side to progress not just in the current season, but with an eye on the future too. All of this has been done against a backdrop of often sensational football, with the odd shocker thrown in to keep us on our toes. Put simply, it’s been one hell of a ride so far and for my part, I’ve absolutely loved it. Much of what I have just described, is precisely what the bulk of malcontents last season were baying for – entertainment, youth, a sounder financial footing, no mercenaries out for a last fat pay check and most important of all, some entertaining football. By and large, the fans have kept their side of the deal. Most have remained upbeat after the adverse results this season, but as always, there’s a core of noisy, know-it-all’s who we only hear from after a defeat or poor performance and who completely lose their perspective anytime some poor miscreant fails to meet their exacting performance standards. That, my friends, is entitlement, pure and simple. We beat West Brom 4-1, Leeds beat us 4-1, West Brom beat Leeds 4-1. It’s the nature of the beast and what makes the Championship so much more compelling than the Prem where it’s 2 or three 3 teams competing at the top and very seldom more. Let’s be honest here, there’s a world of difference between stating facts like, ‘Bogle looked exposed today’ or ‘Lawrence went missing and failed to help his fullback’ and some of the utter garbage posted by bedwetting, knee-jerkers who’d have us believe that the sky has just fallen in. The relish with which some on here have been talking about the Villa game as season-defining and other such bolarks makes me genuinely despair. Why is it that the same folk don’t see our performances against the likes of Manure, Sheffield, Chelsea, Brum and the Baggies as being in any way defining, why is it only the games that we lose that are meaningful? These are, of course rhetorical questions, as the answer is abundantly clear to all bar the individuals themselves. Let’s talk about Bogle now. Jayden Bogle turned 18 this summer. Three games in, he was being lauded as the next big thing to come out of our academy, a ‘future £20 million’ player and quite rightly so really, but the fact remains that he’s only 13 games into his senior career and as a nipper, will be ruthlessly targeted by teams this season in the hope that he’ll crumble. I think yesterday, he did a little and it was painful to watch. His confidence is, I suspect, at a slightly low ebb right now but does that not mean that he needs our support more at this time than when he’s flying? Do you seriously believe that he and other players won’t have been reading this and other forums since the game and how do we suppose young Jayden would feel reading some of the comments posted? As for Tom Lawrence, well he is a different case. He’s become something of a pantomime villain for some of the supposed Derby faithful, mainly, I suspect, because he was Rowett’s prime target and the fact that he cost a fair few quid, neither of which are his fault. He has also been hugely frustrating at times, showing flashes of immense ability on occasions, then playing as if he’s the only Derby player on the park. His work rate seems highly inconsistent too but I think to a degree, he just doesn’t have an engine like a Craig Bryson type player and today he looked out on his feet to me. In truth, he barely lifted a leg and I can fully grasp how that will irk many fans. That said, in recent games he’s played well, better than well in fact and as a result, he’s got a bit love chucked his way from the Derby faithful, many of whom have been staunch in their support of him when perhaps he’s not fully deserved it. Happy-clappers, huh! Yesterday, it’s fair to say, he was all Jekyll and no Hyde but does that justify a noisy minority comparing his usefulness to ruptured prophylactics whilst others earnestly stated he should never play for Derby again? We can be the architects of our own downfall sometimes, is what I’m trying to say and before some wag asks me what’s wrong with criticising a player, the answer is nothing at all, it’s the way it’s sometimes done that bothers myself and many others on here. Anyone can utter a cross word in the heat of the moment, but when it’s the same folk again and again, it’s going to get a rise out of some on here as is probably the aim anyway. If this is you then just don’t be a baby when a few choice words head back in your direction, eh? So, expectation vs entitlement – the former is the right of every fan surely? We expect our team to try hard, to show pride in the club and to prosper when they have all the tools at their disposal and a golden opportunity to do so. I think that’s most of us, right? The latter is the province of hypocrites who clearly believe their own workplace performance never waivers below ‘utterly excellent’ (let alone have days where they absolutely suck) and take a perverse pleasure in denigrating a team they claim to support. These ‘fans’ most often blithely assume that we need only turn up to win every game which then affords them the moral imperative to ruin the team when things go wrong. Makes me genuinely despair sometimes. There's nowt wrong with expectation, belief and dreams. The other thing, not so much. COYR That has to be one of the most educated and truthful posts iv ever seen.Very well written and from someone who clearly understands the game. Well done lad spot on post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Quote Yesterday, it’s fair to say, he was all Jekyll and no Hyde Wrong way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 On 11/11/2018 at 09:41, 86 points said: My expectations are quite simple this season. That we stick to the plan and try and play football the way it should be played. Yep - Me too Also, yes Saturday was painful - But Villa have assembled a squad that makes us look like bargain basement shoppers (I don't believe we are BTW) and it's finally coming good for them I've seen 1 (maybe 2) teams that are better than us this season - I saw a LOT more than that last season - And to be able to say that after 3 months of Frankies time here is amazing Wow - I really didn't think I was ever going to retrieve my sense of optimism about our football after 18 months of Rowett anti-football - Quite refreshing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Yep - Me too Also, yes Saturday was painful - But Villa have assembled a squad that makes us look like bargain basement shoppers (I don't believe we are BTW) and it's finally coming good for them I've seen 1 (maybe 2) teams that are better than us this season - I saw a LOT more than that last season - And to be able to say that after 3 months of Frankies time here is amazing Wow - I really didn't think I was ever going to retrieve my sense of optimism about our football after 18 months of Rowett anti-football - Quite refreshing... In all honesty I was a tad exasperated with the second half performance but these things happen. I think accepting that these things will happen is part and parcel of getting any enjoyment from the game. The injuries really messed us up too. The initial sub was as a result of the first one and was immediately undone by the second. It's hard to be too critical given those circumstances. I've pretty much loved watching us this season. It's not all been great and there's still plenty of scope for improvement, but it has been a breath of fresh air. I'd dearly love to see us promoted this season but it wouldn't be the end of the world if that doesn't happen. In the meantime I intend to just enjoy the ride as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, 86 points said: In all honesty I was a tad exasperated with the second half performance but these things happen. I think accepting that these things will happen is part and parcel of getting any enjoyment from the game. The injuries really messed us up too. The initial sub was as a result of the first one and was immediately undone by the second. It's hard to be too critical given those circumstances. I've pretty much loved watching us this season. It's not all been great and there's still plenty of scope for improvement, but it has been a breath of fresh air. I'd dearly love to see us promoted this season but it wouldn't be the end of the world if that doesn't happen. In the meantime I intend to just enjoy the ride as best I can. Yeh, me too a little - But mostly by how we were just outclassed - First 5 mins of the second I thought we might start showing it and then we got overrun There is only one disappointment with Lampard for me so far - An explanation of what's happening with Thorne - We know the likes of Anya and Butterfield are going to be leaving - All the others have been given a chance to show what they can do - Just no indication what's the plan with Thorne - No squad number, no place in the photo but no indication he's being moved on - Surely they can't run his contract down for 2 seasons? Other than that I'm mostly positivity and light ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: Yeh, me too a little - But mostly by how we were just outclassed - First 5 mins of the second I thought we might start showing it and then we got overrun There is only one disappointment with Lampard for me so far - An explanation of what's happening with Thorne - We know the likes of Anya and Butterfield are going to be leaving - All the others have been given a chance to show what they can do - Just no indication what's the plan with Thorne - No squad number, no place in the photo but no indication he's being moved on - Surely they can't run his contract down for 2 seasons? Other than that I'm mostly positivity and light ? George thing is weird. Never really sure what's going on behind the scenes as it does seem Frank keeps his cards pretty close to his chest. For the most part I'd say that's probably a good thing but it does frustrate us inquisitive fans! He's a smart guy and will be learning all the while. I guess the surprise is not that he's made mistakes bt that he hasn't made more of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 On 11/11/2018 at 11:45, 86 points said: Are we the worst though? I think we're probably on a par with quite a few clubs. On occasions our support at games has been phenomenal. I think it's more a minority thing but the moaners just have louder voices. I think last year it got close to toxic at times but I've not sensed that this season, least not as yet. Probably no worse or better than alot of clubs. It's just generally some peoples extreme attitudes in this day and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 On 11/11/2018 at 09:41, 86 points said: This is a very long moan about moaners - those of a sensitive disposition, look away now.... Expectation Vs Entitlement We’ve all seen Gladiator, right? ‘Are you not entertained’, bellows Russell Crowe at the baying crowd, having ruthlessly dispatched half a dozen scary looking blokes in ever-increasingly, blood-curdling fashion. So, are we not entertained? Last season we were treated to around 40 games of what one might politely term, ‘pragmatic football’. There were maybe half a dozen games where we looked good but for the most part, we sat deep, took zero risks and tried to steal points. It really wasn’t great to watch but we had to admit (or some of us did) that it was more than passably effective given we ended the season a mere 45 minutes away from a play-off final before our total lack of ambition became our ultimate undoing. This season we’re a different side. The turgid, ponderous, route one approach has been swept aside in favour of a high-risk, high-tempo game where we simply try to blow teams away with fast, fluid football. In doing so, we always look to build from the back and we avoid humping balls down the channels, all in favour of one-touch interchanges between players who constantly run into spaces, while off the ball, we press like madmen until our legs fill with lactic acid and we can run no more. This approach brings a deal more entertainment value, but it does rather mean that when we are not fully on it, we can be ruthlessly exposed. Both Leeds and Villa, two sides whose personnel have been together for some time and mostly comprise of seasoned professionals, have done exactly that. To compound this, we’ve rather capitulated in both games, and yet quite tellingly, only in those two games. No other teams have really pulled us apart, with the few other lacklustre efforts generally being of our own making. Even then (and often from a goal down) we’ve stuck to our guns and salvaged wins and draws without as a result. That's progress. My expectations are quite simple this season. That we stick to the plan and try and play football the way it should be played. I sense that unless we are crippled with injuries, the only way this will not yield a play-off slot is if the players shrink back into their shells and begin to play with fear again. But here’s the thing - it’s not an entitlement – we have no divine right to success. Our net spend in a transformational season was around £1 million and Frank and Jody have only been here a quarter of a season with just a single transfer window in which to re-shape the team. To my mind, they’ve moved mountains, lowering the average age and the wage bill, promoting youth and setting about trying to build a side to progress not just in the current season, but with an eye on the future too. All of this has been done against a backdrop of often sensational football, with the odd shocker thrown in to keep us on our toes. Put simply, it’s been one hell of a ride so far and for my part, I’ve absolutely loved it. Much of what I have just described, is precisely what the bulk of malcontents last season were baying for – entertainment, youth, a sounder financial footing, no mercenaries out for a last fat pay check and most important of all, some entertaining football. By and large, the fans have kept their side of the deal. Most have remained upbeat after the adverse results this season, but as always, there’s a core of noisy, know-it-all’s who we only hear from after a defeat or poor performance and who completely lose their perspective anytime some poor miscreant fails to meet their exacting performance standards. That, my friends, is entitlement, pure and simple. We beat West Brom 4-1, Leeds beat us 4-1, West Brom beat Leeds 4-1. It’s the nature of the beast and what makes the Championship so much more compelling than the Prem where it’s 2 or three 3 teams competing at the top and very seldom more. Let’s be honest here, there’s a world of difference between stating facts like, ‘Bogle looked exposed today’ or ‘Lawrence went missing and failed to help his fullback’ and some of the utter garbage posted by bedwetting, knee-jerkers who’d have us believe that the sky has just fallen in. The relish with which some on here have been talking about the Villa game as season-defining and other such bolarks makes me genuinely despair. Why is it that the same folk don’t see our performances against the likes of Manure, Sheffield, Chelsea, Brum and the Baggies as being in any way defining, why is it only the games that we lose that are meaningful? These are, of course rhetorical questions, as the answer is abundantly clear to all bar the individuals themselves. Let’s talk about Bogle now. Jayden Bogle turned 18 this summer. Three games in, he was being lauded as the next big thing to come out of our academy, a ‘future £20 million’ player and quite rightly so really, but the fact remains that he’s only 13 games into his senior career and as a nipper, will be ruthlessly targeted by teams this season in the hope that he’ll crumble. I think yesterday, he did a little and it was painful to watch. His confidence is, I suspect, at a slightly low ebb right now but does that not mean that he needs our support more at this time than when he’s flying? Do you seriously believe that he and other players won’t have been reading this and other forums since the game and how do we suppose young Jayden would feel reading some of the comments posted? As for Tom Lawrence, well he is a different case. He’s become something of a pantomime villain for some of the supposed Derby faithful, mainly, I suspect, because he was Rowett’s prime target and the fact that he cost a fair few quid, neither of which are his fault. He has also been hugely frustrating at times, showing flashes of immense ability on occasions, then playing as if he’s the only Derby player on the park. His work rate seems highly inconsistent too but I think to a degree, he just doesn’t have an engine like a Craig Bryson type player and today he looked out on his feet to me. In truth, he barely lifted a leg and I can fully grasp how that will irk many fans. That said, in recent games he’s played well, better than well in fact and as a result, he’s got a bit love chucked his way from the Derby faithful, many of whom have been staunch in their support of him when perhaps he’s not fully deserved it. Happy-clappers, huh! Yesterday, it’s fair to say, he was all Jekyll and no Hyde but does that justify a noisy minority comparing his usefulness to ruptured prophylactics whilst others earnestly stated he should never play for Derby again? We can be the architects of our own downfall sometimes, is what I’m trying to say and before some wag asks me what’s wrong with criticising a player, the answer is nothing at all, it’s the way it’s sometimes done that bothers myself and many others on here. Anyone can utter a cross word in the heat of the moment, but when it’s the same folk again and again, it’s going to get a rise out of some on here as is probably the aim anyway. If this is you then just don’t be a baby when a few choice words head back in your direction, eh? So, expectation vs entitlement – the former is the right of every fan surely? We expect our team to try hard, to show pride in the club and to prosper when they have all the tools at their disposal and a golden opportunity to do so. I think that’s most of us, right? The latter is the province of hypocrites who clearly believe their own workplace performance never waivers below ‘utterly excellent’ (let alone have days where they absolutely suck) and take a perverse pleasure in denigrating a team they claim to support. These ‘fans’ most often blithely assume that we need only turn up to win every game which then affords them the moral imperative to ruin the team when things go wrong. Makes me genuinely despair sometimes. There's nowt wrong with expectation, belief and dreams. The other thing, not so much. COYR I have so many issues with this. Who says lampards way is the right way? Rowett got a poo loads of clean sheets which had us craving for carson in the England squad. Lampards Derby cant keep a clean sheet, infact against Villa, the goals for caved in, before our ability to let 0 into our our net. Whilst in no way do I prefer rowetts style to Lampards, I have to take issue with "The turgid, ponderous, route one approach"| At No stage did did Rowett ever play route 1. He chose to defend by sitting in, rather than pressing, and he preferred to stretch the pitch with deep defending and channel runners, making us a decent counter attacking side which achieved more 3 goal margin victories than even Wolves or Fulham. You sir, are a footballing snob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, jagerbob said: I have so many issues with this. Who says lampards way is the right way? Rowett got a poo loads of clean sheets which had us craving for carson in the England squad. Lampards Derby cant keep a clean sheet, infact against Villa, the goals for caved in, before our ability to let 0 into our our net. Whilst in no way do I prefer rowetts style to Lampards, I have to take issue with "The turgid, ponderous, route one approach"| At No stage did did Rowett ever play route 1. He chose to defend by sitting in, rather than pressing, and he preferred to stretch the pitch with deep defending and channel runners, making us a decent counter attacking side which achieved more 3 goal margin victories than even Wolves or Fulham. You sir, are a footballing snob! Yeah, ok mate. I'll try to address your rant concisely. Firstly, you were clearly watching a different side to many if you recall us as being a fluid, counter-attacking team. Maybe route one is an unkind term, but just because we hoofed it down the channels does not mean we were more cultured than a team hoofing it directly into the box. Finally, the fact that you don't agree with me doesn't make me a 'footballing snob' mate, it just means we have different views on the matter. I'll resist the urge to say anymore as I'll just get moaned at so let's just agree to disagree, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 3 hours ago, 86 points said: Yeah, ok mate. I'll try to address your rant concisely. Firstly, you were clearly watching a different side to many if you recall us as being a fluid, counter-attacking team. Maybe route one is an unkind term, but just because we hoofed it down the channels does not mean we were more cultured than a team hoofing it directly into the box. Finally, the fact that you don't agree with me doesn't make me a 'footballing snob' mate, it just means we have different views on the matter. I'll resist the urge to say anymore as I'll just get moaned at so let's just agree to disagree, eh? I'm with @jagerbob on this one. Although there was none of the tippy tappy football at the back, and not much of the passing through the thirds, to suggest we were a route one team is just incorrect and a re-writing of history. Huddlestone was one of our most important players last season, are you suggesting he was just hoofing the ball anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igorwasking Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 There are no facts. Just widely held opinions. In my opinion of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, Igorwasking said: There are no facts. Just widely held opinions. In relation to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igorwasking Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: In relation to what? Anything. The world was flat a few hundred years ago - that was a widely held opinion - and as a result - considered fact. There are no facts at all - as everything changes. Death is the closest thing to fact - but there is even a debate as to whether that will continue to be true. Fact. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 41 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: In relation to what? Conspiracy theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 5 hours ago, jagerbob said: I have so many issues with this. Who says lampards way is the right way? Rowett got a poo loads of clean sheets which had us craving for carson in the England squad. Lampards Derby cant keep a clean sheet, infact against Villa, the goals for caved in, before our ability to let 0 into our our net. Whilst in no way do I prefer rowetts style to Lampards, I have to take issue with "The turgid, ponderous, route one approach"| At No stage did did Rowett ever play route 1. He chose to defend by sitting in, rather than pressing, and he preferred to stretch the pitch with deep defending and channel runners, making us a decent counter attacking side which achieved more 3 goal margin victories than even Wolves or Fulham. You sir, are a footballing snob! So what's wrong with being a footballing snob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Sam Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 oh my goodness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBee Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 6 hours ago, jagerbob said: At No stage did did Rowett ever play route 1. i suspect you must have fallen asleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Just now, DRBee said: i suspect you must have fallen asleep Fulham Manager just got sacked and Claudio Ranieri appointed Doesn’t matter which way you play it’s about results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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