George Thorne-No longer the player he was

[RamNut]

why play Ledley but not Thorne or Butters?

hudds was very poor v villa. For a big lad who started as a defender, its strange that he's next to useless in terms of tackling and shielding the back four.Lawrence and jozefzoon also had poor second halfs.

There is a case for shaking it up a bit, and these guys are the only options left.

 

 

[cheron85]

15 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

I must stress, I was merely speculating... hence the question mark at the end of each of my sentences.

Oh yeh I know - I was just expressing my incredulity in general

17 hours ago, 86 points said:

George thing is weird. Never really sure what's going on behind the scenes as it does seem Frank keeps his cards pretty close to his chest. For the most part I'd say that's probably a good thing but it does frustrate us inquisitive fans! He's a smart guy and will be learning all the while. I guess the surprise is not that he's made mistakes bt that he hasn't made more of them.

I guess the argument for not being more vocal about it is that IF he has to pull one of them back into the fold because of injuries (like Anya last season under Rowett) he doesn't lose face - But since Bird is in the pecking order ahead of Thorne and Butters you would have thought they could be more open about it

17 hours ago, Archied said:

Dont agree on it being a poor attitude from lampard ,he may well have spoken to Thorne , spoken to others at the club , looked at thornes playing record , watched him train and play since he arrived and taken medical advise and decided that he would much rather draw a line under George’s time with us and move on ,

My problem is the logic - If he isn't fit then how can you judge him? Speculatively you could say he doesn't want players with long term injury history in the squad? 

One of my big problems with Rowett (aside from the football) is he seemed to have favourites - And there was little logic to it - I'd hate to think Lampard had come in saying everyone has a fresh start yet not given that to Thorne

[Rev]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Lampard called you on his first day in the job to say you were part of his plans. How important was that for you?

"It was massive - and a bit surreal, seeing 'Frank Lampard' coming up on your phone and him phoning you, when you've only ever seen him on TV playing in the big games for Chelsea and England and Man City.

"There was a bit of speculation around that time that I was going to sign for Cardiff and that I wasn't wanted by Derby. So that just confirmed that the club did want me to stay and the manager wanted me to be part of his plans.

"It just makes you want to be part of it and, up until now, he's obviously been true to his word and I've played basically every game."

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/craig-bryson-Derby-cardiff-lampard-2126439

Unless he already had the managers number, how did his phone flash up 'Frank Lampard' when he called?

[David]

Just now, reveldevil said:

Unless he already had the managers number, how did his phone flash up 'Frank Lampard' when he called?

Club phone maybe, gets passed on manager to manager, change the name from Rowett to Lampard in your phonebook.

Either way, both have spoke about this call which happened before pre season training. 

[Curtains]

15 minutes ago, RamNut said:

why play Ledley but not Thorne or Butters?

hudds was very poor v villa. For a big lad who started as a defender, its strange that he's next to useless in terms of tackling and shielding the back four.Lawrence and jozefzoon also had poor second halfs.

There is a case for shaking it up a bit, and these guys are the only options left.

 

 

It’s terrible seeing them outside Igor’s watching the game doing nothing .

Soul destroying for them. 

[cheron85]

14 hours ago, Curtains said:

I still miss Vydra but I am behind Lampard and have moved on from Rowett. 

I don't - Marriott is my new favourite player - Haven't had one for a few seasons (maybe Hughes) but Marriott gives me the ?

12 hours ago, Smyth_18 said:

George Thorne is far from fit. It's a medical/ statistical fact.

Is that true? I know that the u23 football is supposed to be an 'easier' run out for the senior players but he's playing every week from the looks of it - Is it just a permanent thing now? Like he has long term problems with his knees?

53 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

There is absolutely no conspiracy. Upon Lampard’s arrival, he had to make decisions regards players, who to keep, who to recruit. From day one he made it clear that Thorne was surplus to requirements. And a few others. Originally, it was Bryson to be made surplus too, and he was to keep Butterfield. But he was told the Mount deal was possible and after Bryson impressed him in pre-season, he changed tack. He told those players he wanted to move on that they’d not be forming part of his squad, wouldn’t be training with them, wouldn’t be part of the squad photo and should look for another club. 

That's fine - I totally respect the managers decision to do that - I have loved Martin for years and think he'd fit into pretty much any way of playing but I've accepted that Lampard wants to move him on and it's obvious that he's brought in replacements (as above, the new footballing love of my life)

Not sure if you come from a position of ITK or if you're just very firmly stating your speculations - But my problem still comes down to Lampard said everyone was to be given a clean slate - If he binned off Thorne on day one then he didn't do that

27 minutes ago, David said:

Lampard called you on his first day in the job to say you were part of his plans. How important was that for you?

"It was massive - and a bit surreal, seeing 'Frank Lampard' coming up on your phone and him phoning you, when you've only ever seen him on TV playing in the big games for Chelsea and England and Man City.

"There was a bit of speculation around that time that I was going to sign for Cardiff and that I wasn't wanted by Derby. So that just confirmed that the club did want me to stay and the manager wanted me to be part of his plans.

"It just makes you want to be part of it and, up until now, he's obviously been true to his word and I've played basically every game."

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/craig-bryson-Derby-cardiff-lampard-2126439

Oooooohhhhh wait @Warren Hobhead I just saw this - So you're just speculating then?

Also - I seem to remember this too:

“But George is in the same boat as every other player, he wants to get back into that first-team squad and by performing with the under-23s and performing well, he will give himself the best opportunity.”

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/darren-wassall-possibility-george-thorne-1967051

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, Warren Hobhead said:

There is absolutely no conspiracy. Upon Lampard’s arrival, he had to make decisions regards players, who to keep, who to recruit. From day one he made it clear that Thorne was surplus to requirements. And a few others. Originally, it was Bryson to be made surplus too, and he was to keep Butterfield. But he was told the Mount deal was possible and after Bryson impressed him in pre-season, he changed tack. He told those players he wanted to move on that they’d not be forming part of his squad, wouldn’t be training with them, wouldn’t be part of the squad photo and should look for another club. 

However, we struggled initially to move most on because we were asking for too large a contribution to players’ wages. Butterfield and Martin rejected loan moves to QPR in July. Millwall and Hull then came sniffing and both players favoured the latter. Absolutely no idea why Hull took so long on Butterfield but by all accounts, the fax sent to the FA was a minute late and thus he was left here stranded. 

Thorne’s fitness issues must have put clubs off as he was never close to leaving. But these few remaining ‘surplus’ players occasionally get a game in the U23s, train with the kids and generally are looking to get fixed up in January elsewhere. That’s why they are getting run outs (we can only play three overage each game though) in front of scouts. 

So no conspiracy. 

I’m a known admirer of Thorne and Butters. I still rank them above Johnson, Ledley, Evans and Bryson. But I’ve acceoted they aren’t going to play. 

Lampard is the man and he made his decisions. That’s football.

This seems very genuine to me.  

Never the less I don’t agree with it. 

[Mr Tibbs]

2 hours ago, Curtains said:

It’s terrible seeing them outside Igor’s watching the game doing nothing .

Soul destroying for them. 

Someone could destroy my soul for 20k a week.

I can't really feel sorry for them if I'm honest, they've not been good enough when called upon. Thorne less so due to injury. Let's not pretend these players haven't been given chances in previous seasons.

[Curtains]

14 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Someone could destroy my soul for 20k a week.

I can't really feel sorry for them if I'm honest, they've not been good enough when called upon. Thorne less so due to injury. Let's not pretend these players haven't been given chances in previous seasons.

Remind me what they have done wrong 

[BondJovi]

4 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Remind me what they have done wrong 

They don't have to have done anything wrong. The manager does not see them as part of the first team plan. If they were good enough, they would be playing.

Huddlestone has one poor game (not the only one) after 3 excellent performances at least and suddenly we need to go change it all up. Madness.

Best thing to do with Thorne is forget him. If he really is physically or mentally screwed would Lampard make that public? If he was getting back to his best, he would either be in the squad or on loan somewhere. He may yet get back there, but he needs regular competitive football with no ridiculous expectations on him. Putting Bird on the bench tells me the management are looking to the future. Nothing sentimental here.

[Mucker1884]

16 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Remind me what they have done wrong 

That's a bit naughty...

 

Is "Doing wrong" the same as "They've not been good enough when called upon"?

They're worlds apart, in my book.

[Mr Tibbs]

26 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Remind me what they have done wrong 

Didn't say they'd done anything wrong.

Have they done the right things when called upon? Judging by Butters loan spell last year, he didn't. What an opportunity for him, didn't take it, who can he blame but himself? 

[BathRam72]

14 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

They don't have to have done anything wrong. The manager does not see them as part of the first team plan. If they were good enough, they would be playing.

Huddlestone has one poor game (not the only one) after 3 excellent performances at least and suddenly we need to go change it all up. Madness.

Best thing to do with Thorne is forget him. If he really is physically or mentally screwed would Lampard make that public? If he was getting back to his best, he would either be in the squad or on loan somewhere. He may yet get back there, but he needs regular competitive football with no ridiculous expectations on him. Putting Bird on the bench tells me the management are looking to the future. Nothing sentimental here.

Here here. I agree with all of this and as for the last bit.

Thorne was injured/coming back from when the current management arrived.

I doubt they had any real first hand knowledge of him other than word of mouth and maybe looking at videos. Difficult for them to pick someone who isn't hitting the heights he once had if he is not producing.

Thorne might just not figure in the current style of play.

Which ever it is, Lampard will not have any real affinity and will do what he feels is right. 

We need to wait and see.

[Wolfie]

38 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Remind me what they have done wrong 

 

9 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Didn't say they'd done anything wrong.

Have they done the right things when called upon? Judging by Butters loan spell last year, he didn't. What an opportunity for him, didn't take it, who can he blame but himself? 

If these players, who know they are not going to be in FL's plans, are so unhappy and desperate to play first team football, why don't they ask to be released from their contracts and go and play in League 1 and fight their way back up to where they think they deserve to be.

It's not as if the club hasn't been honest with them, by the sound of it. Feels too easy to be happy to sit on the sidelines & get paid more than many of the current first 11.

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

 

If these players, who know they are not going to be in FL's plans, are so unhappy and desperate to play first team football, why don't they ask to be released from their contracts and go and play in League 1 and fight their way back up to where they think they deserve to be.

It's not as if the club hasn't been honest with them, by the sound of it. Feels too easy to be happy to sit on the sidelines & get paid more than many of the current first 11.

Potentially may not suit the club to let players do this as could lead to a FFP hit depending on the value that the players are carrying in the accounts. 

Would only be advantageous if the wages saved was higher than the players value.

[Coneheadjohn]

5 hours ago, Curtains said:

This seems very genuine to me.  

Never the less I don’t agree with it. 

Nice to see you back mate.

This made me chuckle  to myself.

[cheron85]

2 hours ago, Wolfie said:

If these players, who know they are not going to be in FL's plans, are so unhappy and desperate to play first team football, why don't they ask to be released from their contracts and go and play in League 1 and fight their way back up to where they think they deserve to be.

I don't think they can - I think there's a free transfer window so they wouldn't be able to sign for someone new until January

@Smyth_18 and @Warren Hobhead seem to be our most ITK sources on it at the moment - Any ideas when Thorne was told he was surplus to requirements? If he has been it might explain his 'poor' performance for the u23s and if after deadline day might explain why he didn't get a summer move

(People at work are making me furious so now trying to take a calmer, more thoughtful approach on here...)

[Smyth_18]

6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I don't think they can - I think there's a free transfer window so they wouldn't be able to sign for someone new until January

@Smyth_18 and @Warren Hobhead seem to be our most ITK sources on it at the moment - Any ideas when Thorne was told he was surplus to requirements? If he has been it might explain his 'poor' performance for the u23s and if after deadline day might explain why he didn't get a summer move

(People at work are making me furious so now trying to take a calmer, more thoughtful approach on here...)

All i have been told is from a mate who is currently working with him (who knows little about football in general).

Simply, he has been told to get into a position where he can be sold in January.

[richinspain]

On 12/11/2018 at 17:24, Curtains said:

At the Lampard forum MM said other clubs need not think they are getting our players on loan on the cheap. 

In fact he seemed quite matter of fact about it  

Thats why IMO Thorne and Butterfield are stuck at Derby 

He also said that he doesn't like how FFP works. "You can sign a player for x amount of pounds and the next day he gets an injury that doesn't end his career but knocks millions off his value" (or words to that effect). George?

[rynny]

On 12/11/2018 at 16:22, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

he isn't given a squad number

?‍♂️