Mucker1884 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Well, I don't know about goals, but I expected a draw v DYS, wins at Millwall, Rotherham, and Bolton, and draws v Blades and Baggies, so I make that a points difference (against reality) of +6, which puts us on 34 points and a runaway lead! Here's my shouldacouldawoulda league table: 1. Derby County P16 Pts34 2. Meh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, David said: You know where you can stick that table. This is the table that matters. I'm sticking with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 57 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: It still amazes me that people (must be an entire army) are employed to count and "assess" every shot a team has and then calculate these meaningless stats. These stats aren't supposed to be taken on their own though. You're not supposed to throw a party because you're top of the xG chart. They're supposed to tell you something that you can then go and look at in matches to see what's actually happening. The fact we're scoring a decent number of goals, from a lot of shots, but have a relatively low xG suggests we're creating a lot of low-quality chances. And if you go and look at the shot totals and shot zones (whoscored.com has these), we have the 2nd most shots in total in the Championship, and by far the most from outside of the box. We also have one of the lowest shot counts from inside the 6 yard box. That points to the same conclusion, we have lots of shots, but quite a few of them are pot shots from outside the area. So you go and watch some matches and see why this is happening - and I suspect it will be the games against the likes of Bolton and Rotherham that sway it, where we struggle to break down massed defences and end up shooting from distance. That's maybe not the best example of using these kind of stats, as the conclusion is probably fairly obvious anyway, but there will be plenty of other cases where it can be very useful. I remember a previous manager (can't remember which) talking about a midfielder's yards-covered-per-match having dropped in the previous few matches. That's something you might not pick up from just watching the game (as you can't be watching all 11 players all of the time), so you go and look at the game and see why. Is he struggling a bit with fitness? Are we struggling to get the ball to him, so he can't make forward runs? Is he being lazy and not tracking back enough? Are we playing too many long balls and bypassing midfield so he's not getting involved enough? And once you know why it's happening, you can try and sort it - rest him if he's tired, tell him off if he's being lazy, tweak the midfield shape a bit, or whatever. But without that stat telling you something might be off, the issue might never have been spotted (or at least spotted as quickly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Just now, Lambchop said: I'm sticking with this one. That's the kind of thing you would expect to see from a Forest fan in August, we're better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, David said: , we're better than that. I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Eagle's Barmy Army Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 All these graphs and tables remind me of being at work. I come in here for fun, not to walk away and feel confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Assume these tables are done every season? If so, how did the xG table over a whole season compare with the actual league table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie20 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, McLovin said: I don’t want to get into THAT debate again but all I can say is don’t be quick to dismiss it. Carl made a similar post last year when Rowett was in charge when we were around second in the league before the collapse. Just enjoy the ride and see where it takes us because it’s a lot more enjoyable than last year. What I will say though is that we are conceding too many goals which could cost us long term. There’s only so many times that we can come from behind to win. Anotger 30 times will do us fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, cannable said: It’s a statistical way of measuring performance, hardly nonsense Firstly, I'd argue that statistics are often nonsense. Secondly, how can it automatically be assumed to be a realistic measure of performance? Isn't it just counting the number of shots on target you have from various positions on the pitch (it seems to even take into account "whether it was a headed shot"! Is that a good thing or a bad one? and who defines whether it was "big chance"?) v the number of similar shots (headers!) you've conceded? It seems to measure the number of good goal scoring shots (agreed, a lot is generally a measure of good performance) but doesn't consider why you may not have scored. Was it a "big chance" (normally a good thing to create one but, not always, some are gifted to you) but you fluffed it (surely a measure of bad performance) or did the goal keeper make a good safe (neither a measure of good or bad performance from the attacking teams perspective). Finally, even the title of the article is nonsense. The team that deserves to be top is, wait for it, the team with the most points not the one with the best net XG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 22 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: These stats aren't supposed to be taken on their own though. You're not supposed to throw a party because you're top of the xG chart. They're supposed to tell you something that you can then go and look at in matches to see what's actually happening. The fact we're scoring a decent number of goals, from a lot of shots, but have a relatively low xG suggests we're creating a lot of low-quality chances. And if you go and look at the shot totals and shot zones (whoscored.com has these), we have the 2nd most shots in total in the Championship, and by far the most from outside of the box. We also have one of the lowest shot counts from inside the 6 yard box. That points to the same conclusion, we have lots of shots, but quite a few of them are pot shots from outside the area. So you go and watch some matches and see why this is happening - and I suspect it will be the games against the likes of Bolton and Rotherham that sway it, where we struggle to break down massed defences and end up shooting from distance. That's maybe not the best example of using these kind of stats, as the conclusion is probably fairly obvious anyway, but there will be plenty of other cases where it can be very useful. I remember a previous manager (can't remember which) talking about a midfielder's yards-covered-per-match having dropped in the previous few matches. That's something you might not pick up from just watching the game (as you can't be watching all 11 players all of the time), so you go and look at the game and see why. Is he struggling a bit with fitness? Are we struggling to get the ball to him, so he can't make forward runs? Is he being lazy and not tracking back enough? Are we playing too many long balls and bypassing midfield so he's not getting involved enough? And once you know why it's happening, you can try and sort it - rest him if he's tired, tell him off if he's being lazy, tweak the midfield shape a bit, or whatever. But without that stat telling you something might be off, the issue might never have been spotted (or at least spotted as quickly). Fair enough but, makes you wonder how managers used to cope with assessing their teams performance and that of individuals in the past (I'd love to know what Brian Clough would have to say about this). You'd like to think a decent management team can see for themselves whether their team are creating (and scoring) enough chances and whether an individual seems to be off the pace recently. Also, as you say, they should only be used as indicators (not for journalists to be suggesting team A should be above team B simply because they have a better XG ratio). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Assume these tables are done every season? If so, how did the xG table over a whole season compare with the actual league table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 I have never understood the expected goals garbage. When I was a young lad going out drinking I expected to cop off every night. So I can happily say my expected number of girls I copped off with is circa 1000. The actual number mind is much much much lower. But thanks to expected stats garbage i'll go with the higher figure now. Result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Fair enough but, makes you wonder how managers used to cope with assessing their teams performance and that of individuals in the past (I'd love to know what Brian Clough would have to say about this). You'd like to think a decent management team can see for themselves whether their team are creating (and scoring) enough chances and whether an individual seems to be off the pace recently. Also, as you say, they should only be used as indicators (not for journalists to be suggesting team A should be above team B simply because they have a better XG ratio). It's pretty simple - we can just do it better now than they did. A managers job is all about making decisions (who to pick, who to buy, how to set the team up etc), and if they are able to have more information available to base those decisions on, then it's borderline criminal if they don't make use of it. Plus it's pretty much an arms race - every other manager is potentially using these stats to inform his decisions, so you have to. Brian Clough wasn't up against a league filled with managers using data analysts and sports scientists, he was using the same level of info as everyone else. There are 11 players on the pitch for 90+ minutes - that's potentially 16.5+hours of individual performances to watch - there's no way a manager can re-watch all of that for every game, when we're playing Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday, on top of all of his other duties. If he can sit down and re-watch the game a couple of times with a checklist of all of the things that the stats have highlighted might be of interest, it's a much better use of their time. And for what it's worth, the xG table that was posted mid-season last season was proven correct - we were overachieving based on scoring and conceding at freakishly high and low rates. When those rates drifted back to normal, we started dropping down the table, and only a change of system late on turned it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 16 minutes ago, Paul71 said: I have never understood the expected goals garbage. When I was a young lad going out drinking I expected to cop off every night. So I can happily say my expected number of girls I copped off with is circa 1000. Not quite - it's based on the key indicators, like - did I actually talk to any girls, did any of them let me buy them a drink, did I get on really well with any of them etc if you expected to cop off but stood in the corner all night and didn't even look at anyone then xCO is very low Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Sam Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 the only stat that matters is the one that says we have scored one more than the team we are playing,job done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 A statistic iis just a number. The numbers that went into generating tthe statistic are just numbers. What the numbers mean, is a much more realistic subject for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WharfedaleRam Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 I’ve got a kitchen table - is it worth posting a photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, WharfedaleRam said: I’ve got a kitchen table - is it worth posting a photo? only if it says DCFC on top of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 We've only just started clicking in the last couple of months, maybe even since the last international break. I expect that score to get better over the season. We are now scoring goals and conceding less. That sounds good to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WharfedaleRam Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Spanish said: only if it says DCFC on top of it I’ll get me penknife out........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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