Homeless guy

[McRainy]

1 minute ago, Boycie said:

In what way?

If someone is desperate enough to beg then they are in need of help. It's not something you'd choose to do if you had a better alternative, is it. 

Also, I think the direction of blame towards 'false' beggars, when the root of the problem is so clearly elsewhere, is misguided to say the least.

Having that view, and then actually acting on it by trying to out some people as less deserving is pretty despicable imo. 

[Boycie]

15 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

The number of people forced onto the streets has increased drastically, combined with cuts to basic services and changes to the benefit system. 

I’ve now been informed that many Hostels do have space, but operate a strict no alcohol or drugs rule.

I think many rough sleepers can’t mange their situation without the help of one or both of these.

Its a sad catch 22 situation.

[McRainy]

6 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

I love how you quote the one liners with out mentioning the rest of someones post

I quote the bit I'm responding to.

[Boycie]

3 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

If someone is desperate enough to beg then they are in need of help. It's not something you'd choose to do if you had a better alternative, is it. 

Also, I think the direction of blame towards 'false' beggars, when the root of the problem is so clearly elsewhere, is misguided to say the least.

Having that view, and then actually acting on it by trying to out some people as less deserving is pretty despicable imo. 

Are you saying people don’t pretend to be homeless to get money?

Some that have even proved to be on benefits too?

I agree, most are genuine, and the odd charlatan shouldn’t cloud peoples judgement when they see someone asking for help.

 

[Boycie]

3 hours ago, Lambchop said:

We have ample wealth and resources to house everyone if we chose to do it. 

I refer you to my post about spaces at Hotels.

[BathRam72]

10 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

I quote the bit I'm responding to.

You mean the bits you want to and not the whole picture.

 

[McRainy]

7 minutes ago, Boycie said:

I refer you to my post about spaces at Hotels.

If there are people still on the street then the system isn't working. When the numbers are increasing as drastically as they are, then it is failing, and failing badly. 

I presume you mean hostels, and not hotels, but hostels are not the long term answer. We need to address the problems which lead to homelessness in the first place; lack of affordable housing, high rents, insecure work, stagnant wages, the punitive benefits system etc etc. 

[McRainy]

10 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

You mean the bits you want to and not the whole picture.

 

That's right, I responded to the bit I wanted to respond to. 

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Are you saying people don’t pretend to be homeless to get money?

Some that have even proved to be on benefits too?

I agree, most are genuine, and the odd charlatan shouldn’t cloud peoples judgement when they see someone asking for help.

I don't doubt for a minute that there is a tiny percentage of people begging who are not homeless, but even if that is as high as 1 in 100 - I do wonder about the mentality of the kind of person who gets outraged at the 1% and puts all his efforts into "outing" them rather than putting that effort into helping the 99%.

I get that the logic that says the 99% should now receive more from begging because the 1% have been stopped, but I think that's too simplistic. In whipping up public outrage at the 1% it actually harms the other 99% as it sows distrust and makes people less likely to give money to ANY beggars at all. Even if his honest intention was to achieve the former, he'd have to be daft not to at least acknowledge the latter is true.

In the summer we had a clearout of wardrobes, and rather than just bagging them up and dropping them off at a shop or on the pavement, we took our 8 year old down to the Derbyshire Refugee Solidarity place in the old DET building and all spent some time volunteering, sorting out the donations etc - just so he could actually get a sense of what charity actually is.

Some people's first reaction to that act is to say "well of course you know that some of these refugees aren't really refugees you know".

I'm sorry but that attitude gets society absolutely nowhere ?

[BathRam72]

1 minute ago, StivePesley said:

I don't doubt for a minute that there is a tiny percentage of people begging who are not homeless, but even if that is as high as 1 in 100 - I do wonder about the mentality of the kind of person who gets outraged at the 1% and puts all his efforts into "outing" them rather than putting that effort into helping the 99%.

I get that the logic that says the 99% should now receive more from begging because the 1% have been stopped, but I think that's too simplistic. In whipping up public outrage at the 1% it actually harms the other 99% as it sows distrust and makes people less likely to give money to ANY beggars at all. Even if his honest intention was to achieve the former, he'd have to be daft not to at least acknowledge the latter is true.

In the summer we had a clearout of wardrobes, and rather than just bagging them up and dropping them off at a shop or on the pavement, we took our 8 year old down to the Derbyshire Refugee Solidarity place in the old DET building and all spent some time volunteering, sorting out the donations etc - just so he could actually get a sense of what charity actually is.

Some people's first reaction to that act is to say "well of course you know that some of these refugees aren't really refugees you know".

I'm sorry but that attitude gets society absolutely nowhere ?

Sadly though some so called refugees are often proved to be economic migrants. 

[McRainy]

2 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

In whipping up public outrage at the 1% it actually harms the other 99% as it sows distrust and makes people less likely to give money to ANY beggars at all.

Exactly. 

[McRainy]

2 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Sadly though some so called refugees are often proved to be economic migrants. 

Let's not help refugees then, just in case someone gets away with making a better life for themselves. 

[David]

Money or food/drink is a tricky one. 

My preference would be to give food/drink over money, as money is likely to be spent on feeding their addictions. Whilst I accept not all homeless people are addicts, this maybe an ignorant view that is totally incorrect, but you would more likely come across someone on the street which has an addiction, be it alcohol or drugs over one that has none and simply has nowhere to turn.

The problem is though, addictions need feeding, without professional and medical help you are unlikely to simply quit or be replace with a caffeine/food addiction.

If you are on the streets struggling, getting drunk, high, out their minds I would imagine gets them through each day. If they can't it their addictions drive them towards crime, burglary, robbery, anything that can be moved on for money. This isn't entirely ignorant, my girlfriend works in Next and this is almost a daily problem, whilst not all homeless people, they do have a known list which the Police are also fully aware of their no fixed abode.

You need a serious number of shoplifting convictions to end up behind bars.

I do see help out there for homeless people, up here at least, I'm not sure of the situation in other cities or towns, but that help comes with restrictions, no alcohol or drugs. We have a YMCA, 2 in fact for under 25's, they won't turn you away, the main one is not a long term stay, they work with the council to find you permanent accommodation. The second is much smaller and is for those in education but are homeless due to family issues.

We also have the Salvation Army for those over 25, again not a long term stay, I think the maximum is a year. They are a little bit more tolerate to alcohol, but again, it's a place where you have to want to help yourself.

With those 3 alone you're looking at 100+ rooms, I would perhaps recognise 20 at most homeless people that are in doorways under blankets and asking for money. Must add that the couple with dogs really do anger me and raise a few questions of just how homeless are they.

Rightly or wrongly, possibly ignorant but when I see this help, know people that have used it, my view is only strengthened that you are more likely to come across an addict on the street over one that has no addictions. Going right back to the start, what is the answer, probably a bit of both, bit of money and a a few meals and drinks, comes down to your personal choice which you decide to help with.

After that I think to tackle the problems empty buildings need converting into roofs over heads for those with addictions, safe, clean rooms which keep needles off the streets but with support networks inside that try to work with and try to move on to rehab centres.

Behind every addict there is a story, and it's easy to look down on their choices in life but it's choices that they may regret now but it's extremely difficult to put right without help. If we just turn them on to the street until they are ready to go cold turkey, we're just writing them off as humans which can't be right.

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Sadly though some so called refugees are often proved to be economic migrants. 

I'm not saying that isn't true.

I'm saying that people who think pointing it out to anyone who is trying to help genuine refugees needs to have a deep think about why that is their first reaction to observing a charitable act.

Christ - if people are going to be cynical about charity, they should at least have the good grace to be cynical at the 1% who could end all this overnight if they so chose to

[BathRam72]

8 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Sadly though some so called refugees are often proved to be economic migrants. 

@Lambchop I don't know why you gave an angry face at the truth.

It is widely known that several persons try to get to the UK because they feel they can get a better way of life and our benefits system allows them a good life.

True Refugees may suffer for this. To be honest a refugee by law should seek asylum in the first country that will take them and not try to move through a whole continent just because.

I am also not saying we shouldn't do our bit, merely saying it as it is.

Economic migrants are real and are not Refugees

[Wolfie]

Thread disappears again in 3....2....

[Boycie]

Not disappearing, everyone’s having a discussion nicely.

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

@Lambchop I don't know why you gave an angry face at the truth.

Stive answered that point above. 

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

It is widely known that several persons try to get to the UK because they feel they can get a better way of life and our benefits system allows them a good life.

Again, if you want to get to the root of the problem you're focusing on the wrong people. The notion that problems like homelessness are connected to foreigners coming here to help themselves to benefits is not only false, it is completely disingenuous. 

[Boycie]

It’s the elephant in the room.

Its like the first rule of fight club.

 

[BathRam72]

8 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

Stive answered that point above. 

Again, if you want to get to the root of the problem you're focusing on the wrong people. The notion that problems like homelessness are connected to foreigners coming here to help themselves to benefits is not only false, it is completely disingenuous. 

I think you will find (if you can be bothered to look back) that my original post about refugees and economic migrants was in response to StivePesley's post and merely an observation.

No where did I say that homeless were refugees or economic migrants. 

I thank you

You seem to have made that link