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7 hours ago, Dcfcrams89 said:

I don’t get all the grief that keogh gets, yes he was poor on Friday night but not sure he was any worse than Davies. 

Might just be me, but keogh is easily our best centre half playing out from the back. Davies was immense last season and deservedly got a new deal, I just can’t help but think he may be a problem over the course of the season if we are going to play out from the back.

All very true but we need the Keogh Davies of this world to keep the ball out of our net but they will make passing mistakes as will Carson this season but it’s part of the package this season and we will have to live with it especially if everything is ok at the other end of the pitch 

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Passing out from the back becomes a lot easier if your defensive midfielder is disciplined and stays close to the centre-halves - if he wanders off towards the wings or goes up to support the front men (as Ledley did repeatedly in the first half), it puts pressure on the centre-halves to pick more risky passes. Neither Davies or Keogh were great in possession on Friday, but they had very little help from the rest of their team-mates (and I include both full-backs in that as they seemed determined to spend as much time as possible pushing forward - sometimes both at the same time....)

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53 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Passing out from the back becomes a lot easier if your defensive midfielder is disciplined and stays close to the centre-halves - if he wanders off towards the wings or goes up to support the front men (as Ledley did repeatedly in the first half), it puts pressure on the centre-halves to pick more risky passes. Neither Davies or Keogh were great in possession on Friday, but they had very little help from the rest of their team-mates (and I include both full-backs in that as they seemed determined to spend as much time as possible pushing forward - sometimes both at the same time....)

I was very surprised by Ledley. I remember last season against Villa at home he was absolutely superb, always in just the right place, cajoling their players into positions they didn't want to be in. In the whole of that game we made like 3 tackles and they still didn't have a shot on target. Maybe Ledley was given orders to move about a lot (can't think why, but it's possible)?

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1 hour ago, Gaspode said:

Passing out from the back becomes a lot easier if your defensive midfielder is disciplined and stays close to the centre-halves - if he wanders off towards the wings or goes up to support the front men (as Ledley did repeatedly in the first half), it puts pressure on the centre-halves to pick more risky passes. Neither Davies or Keogh were great in possession on Friday, but they had very little help from the rest of their team-mates (and I include both full-backs in that as they seemed determined to spend as much time as possible pushing forward - sometimes both at the same time....)

It surprised me how loose Ledley was in his positional play. Last season he could have got away with it, having Huddlestone alongside but he tended to stay quite close to the back 4 and with Huddlestone also holding back we often were outgunned in midfield. This season I expected his role to be sitting immediately in front of the defence and laying the ball off to Mount or Bryson then hoding his defensive position.

I rate Ledley but that was a very un-Ledley performance against Reading.

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19 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

I wonder if the 'positive, attacking' approach that Frank has been preaching had a bit too much of an effect on some of them - possibly trying too hard to impress as well and forgetting about doing the basics....

Think their will be a few chopping and changes during the season,mixing it up a bit with the first team.No one other than Carson being certain of automatically being selected week in week out. Sure Frank will want to maximise the squad rotating a couple of players here and their.

We looked out of sort on Friday ,perhaps everyone eager to impress and lacked cohesion. Attitude and commitment was good though and it hopefully will start coming together as a team.

 

 

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People will get more sure of their roles when they are more familiar with their team-mates.

Ledley is an intelligent player though so have to question team orders. I wouldn't say he sat back in preseason, maybe other players are supposed to cover if he moves forward and that made him look bad.

Obviously Frank wants pretty cavalier wing backs so Aina makes sense over Wisdom. Interested to see more of Wisdom in the centre as he's the only centre back that will still be here in 2 years. I'm presuming Evans can do it but isn't one. 

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9 minutes ago, Rample said:

People will get more sure of their roles when they are more familiar with their team-mates.

Ledley is an intelligent player though so have to question team orders. I wouldn't say he sat back in preseason, maybe other players are supposed to cover if he moves forward and that made him look bad.

Obviously Frank wants pretty cavalier wing backs so Aina makes sense over Wisdom. Interested to see more of Wisdom in the centre as he's the only centre back that will still be here in 2 years. I'm presuming Evans can do it but isn't one. 

Agree, it's all about comfort. 

I think Wisdom's biggest challenge against Reading was that Wilson drifted inside most of the time Wisdom was on the ball, so there was no-one on the wing to play it up to.

Wisdom's played, successfully, in possession based attacking formations before - but he's always been passing it up the line to a wide-man and advancing on the overlap which wasn't an option available to him most of the time. I think he'd be less comfortable playing out as a CB, with less space for him to run into. 

He just needs time to develop an understanding with Wilson.

His pace is a genuine weakness, but he *usually* has enough to deal with most wingers in this league - is Barrow just quicker than most and it accentuated the problem?

 

On the central 3, they'd definitely been instructed to rotate. When Mount scored it was Bryson deep (who got the asssist) and Ledley was following up the shot, he was in the 6 yard box when it went in!

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1 hour ago, SaintRam said:

Agree, it's all about comfort. 

I think Wisdom's biggest challenge against Reading was that Wilson drifted inside most of the time Wisdom was on the ball, so there was no-one on the wing to play it up to.

Wisdom's played, successfully, in possession based attacking formations before - but he's always been passing it up the line to a wide-man and advancing on the overlap which wasn't an option available to him most of the time. I think he'd be less comfortable playing out as a CB, with less space for him to run into. 

He just needs time to develop an understanding with Wilson.

His pace is a genuine weakness, but he *usually* has enough to deal with most wingers in this league - is Barrow just quicker than most and it accentuated the problem?

 

On the central 3, they'd definitely been instructed to rotate. When Mount scored it was Bryson deep (who got the asssist) and Ledley was following up the shot, he was in the 6 yard box when it went in!

I don’t think he’s slow but that barrow was just very fast. I’d put Wisdom up there with some of the quickest full backs in the league and again I think he’s one of the best RBs in the league. Just need him to as you say link up with Wilson, not all Wisdoms fault Wilson needs to understand Wisdoms game so they can both get better. I think they will be a real force this year together but will take time. 

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2 hours ago, Wolfie20 said:

It surprised me how loose Ledley was in his positional play. Last season he could have got away with it, having Huddlestone alongside but he tended to stay quite close to the back 4 and with Huddlestone also holding back we often were outgunned in midfield. This season I expected his role to be sitting immediately in front of the defence and laying the ball off to Mount or Bryson then hoding his defensive position.

I rate Ledley but that was a very un-Ledley performance against Reading.

You never know. maybe lampard told him to get about a bit more. You dont know what instructions there are following

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