Hillsborough Trial

[SaintRam]

 

[eddie]

Good.

Just a shame Thatcher's dead.

[ossieram]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

Good.

Just a shame Thatcher's dead.

Always see that as a positive myself.

[eddie]

15 minutes ago, ossieram said:

Always see that as a positive myself.

Agreed there - but I would have liked to see the poisonous bitch pay for her deliberate manipulation of the truth.

[ossieram]

5 minutes ago, eddie said:

Agreed there - but I would have liked to see the poisonous bitch pay for her deliberate manipulation of the truth.

I'd much rather her be dead and rotting than alive and standing trial. It's just a shame that it took so long for the truth to come out and that the hag never had to answer for it.

[Mostyn6]

Not to hijack or digress the thread, but some people should be facing similar for Grenfell too. 

[ColonelBlimp]

6 hours ago, eddie said:

Agreed there - but I would have liked to see the poisonous bitch pay for her deliberate manipulation of the truth.

Was it deliberate manipulation or were her opinions and actions formed by those people responsible for all this?

If your senior Police officers/press/advisors are telling you certain 'facts', why wouldn't you believe them?

Don't forget, at the time we were right in the middle of all the footie hooligan stuff so was more believable.

You can blame her for lots of things if you like, much as you can blame Bliar for the Brexit result and the WMD thing but it's entirely plausible she was hoodwinked.

 

[Mick Harford]

4 minutes ago, ColonelBlimp said:

You can blame her for lots of things if you like, much as you can blame Bliar for the Brexit result and the WMD thing but it's entirely plausible she was hoodwinked.

 

I'd argue that there is not a chance of that mate. One of the tenets of authoritarian rule (which coincidentally we seem to be seeing today in politics) is that of divide and conquer, i.e. any group that could feasibly come together to protest/enact change must be dismantled through draconian laws or the rhetoric of fear. Back then she demonised, amongst others:

Ravers/clubbers by criminalising music and declaring a war on drugs (anyone there will tell you not one jot of trouble at events)

Unions the miners and Wapping strikes

The unemployed/poor by creating an aspiration mindset that to be poor or unemployed meant that you just din't work hard enough

Ethnic minorities - style of policing in inner city areas

Homosexuals - pushed through the editorials of Murdoch press

Footy fans were another example of groups that she wanted to destroy, I'm sure a lot of us remember the times when admitting to being a football fan was viewed as something akin to admitting that you rather like Boko Haram.

For my part it is to my eternal shame that I believed the lies peddled for years and I owe the deceased and the people of Liverpool my apologies for always on that front.

[dcfcfan1]

I dont think Duckenfield is a murderer , he didnt mean for 96 fans to die at Hilsborough

If he had apologised soon after the disaster, I would have had sympathy for him, we all make mistakes, some more costly than others. But the 20/30 year cover up is unfuckingforgivable and deserves jail

[RamNut]

6 hours ago, Moist One said:

Not to hijack or digress the thread, but some people should be facing similar for Grenfell too. 

I'm not so sure about these trials.

I.e. that a couple of individuals should take the rap for a collective failure. 

I'll save comments on Grenfell for another day.

But this won't bring anyone back.

The real crime was the subsequent cover up and manipulation of evidence.

p.s. I met someone the other day who was something to do with health and safety at the stadium and was at the match. He was telling me how he found himself being asked to carry equipment through the ground and into a gym where there were dead bodies on the floor and how the horror unfolded in front of their eyes. It turned out that they were carrying bundles of body bags. Then the Police suddenly secured the area and they were kicked out.

[eddie]

57 minutes ago, ColonelBlimp said:

Was it deliberate manipulation or were her opinions and actions formed by those people responsible for all this?

If your senior Police officers/press/advisors are telling you certain 'facts', why wouldn't you believe them?

Don't forget, at the time we were right in the middle of all the footie hooligan stuff so was more believable.

You can blame her for lots of things if you like, much as you can blame Bliar for the Brexit result and the WMD thing but it's entirely plausible she was hoodwinked.

 

She utterly despised football supporters anyway, and would have done everything in her power to crush them under her heel like she did the miners and the trade union movement. Yes, there were a lot of thugs who liked to wage war on matchdays, trashing town centres, smashing up pubs and terrorising communities, and it's almost certain that this formulated her opinion beforehand. However, it is a matter of public record that Thatcher was not happy with the Taylor Report's criticism of the police and its exoneration of the Liverpool fans from blame. She probably carried her opinion that drunk Liverpool fans were the cause to her grave. In short, it is my opinion that her preconceived ideas clouded her judgement, and the cover-up instigated by the South Yorkshire Police was just what she wanted to hear - they were preaching to the already converted.

[McRamFan]

Hope they lock him up until he dies.  Also all that where involved in feeding the press lies, the club and to a degree the ambulance service.

The police and Sheffield Weds also failed to learn from a crush that occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs.

As for Thatcher, she wanted to deflect the Taylor report.  She wrote: “What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations – M.T.”

[PistoldPete2]

2 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Hope they lock him up until he dies.  Also all that where involved in feeding the press lies, the club and to a degree the ambulance service.

The police and Sheffield Weds also failed to learn from a crush that occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs.

As for Thatcher, she wanted to deflect the Taylor report.  She wrote: “What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations – M.T.”

What did he do wrong? He was doing his job, which he wasn't trained to do. Why don't they prosecute the police force as a whole not pick on individuals? 

[PistoldPete2]

17 hours ago, RamNut said:

I'm not so sure about these trials.

I.e. that a couple of individuals should take the rap for a collective failure. 

I'll save comments on Grenfell for another day.

But this won't bring anyone back.

The real crime was the subsequent cover up and manipulation of evidence.

p.s. I met someone the other day who was something to do with health and safety at the stadium and was at the match. He was telling me how he found himself being asked to carry equipment through the ground and into a gym where there were dead bodies on the floor and how the horror unfolded in front of their eyes. It turned out that they were carrying bundles of body bags. Then the Police suddenly secured the area and they were kicked out.

I agree with this.. It's the cover up that was the real crime. The disaster itself was just a tragedy ... With people at fault due to human error, sure. 

[Sith Happens]

35 minutes ago, PistoldPete2 said:

I agree with this.. It's the cover up that was the real crime. The disaster itself was just a tragedy ... With people at fault due to human error, sure. 

For me this is right. People make mistakes. Sadly those made here had tragic consequences but had they been up front and not covered it up, while a punishment would have been warranted maybe there would have been some understanding. 

But covering your arse in such a way just paints him in such a bad light that any apologies or remorse he shows cannot be truly believed. 

Maybe if he had admitted what happened straight away he may have got away with a small sentence. 

 

[McRamFan]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

What did he do wrong? He was doing his job, which he wasn't trained to do. Why don't they prosecute the police force as a whole not pick on individuals? 

Do your job correctly, people don't die; do your job properly, don't alter the truth; do your job properly, you don't get to court.

[RamNut]

10 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Do your job correctly, people don't die; do your job properly, don't alter the truth; do your job properly, you don't get to court.

Lets be honest.

the pimary factor was the system of fences and barriers inside and outside of the ground, together with the single tunnel leading to the central terrace. The police may have opened the gates outside the ground to avert a catastrophe outside, only to shift the problem to another location. The ground was inherently unsafe. The was naivity and stupidity and event management failure but to charge two individuals implies that but for the actions of those two people the situation was otherwise safe. 

We just don't see crushes like that anymore. We don't see grounds like that anymore. 

 

[McRamFan]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

but to charge two individuals implies that but for the actions of those two people the situation was otherwise safe. 

I called for a lot more to be brought to task, if you had read my original post...

[Van der MoodHoover]

It's very difficult to judge these matters from now - from such a distance of time that we have difficulty in remembering exactly what the atmosphere was like towards football crowds in general. 

Some of these big matches were run almost like military operations at those times. The grounds were dreadful generally and the local authorities hapless but enthusiastic to enforce rules.

It's institutional failure on a catastrophic scale surely.

Trouble is who do you bring a charge of corporate manslaughter against? 

[PistoldPete2]

44 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

It's very difficult to judge these matters from now - from such a distance of time that we have difficulty in remembering exactly what the atmosphere was like towards football crowds in general. 

Some of these big matches were run almost like military operations at those times. The grounds were dreadful generally and the local authorities hapless but enthusiastic to enforce rules.

It's institutional failure on a catastrophic scale surely.

Trouble is who do you bring a charge of corporate manslaughter against? 

The FA, and South Yorkshire police.