Spurs

[ronnieronalde]

Cracking debates over the last couple of days.

Found myself liking and agreeing with a lot of what both sides of the fence have to say.

More than anything I think that shows that there is more than one way to play the game and still get a result.

 

Some of the best performances I've ever seen have been backs to the wall 1-0s . I love them as much as watching the silky stuff.

[Andicis]

3 hours ago, David said:

What did Man City win last year after spending a Middle East shed load? Diddly squat.

Man Utd won the League Cup.

Theres only 3 domestic trophies up for grabs, with Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs chasing and 2 in Europe. Doesn’t matter what style of football you play, some of those clubs will end the season empty handed. 

Alright praising Spurs for this pretty football but one trophy in 10 years, maybe if they played a bit more defensive in games they would have won a couple more?

I disagree, Spurs, in the last 20-30 years haven't really been a big team, win the odd cup here or there but never been a historical power house like Liverpool and United. You can't measure their progress with the progress of United, because United is a bigger club, with bigger finances and bigger clout in signing players. 

City didn't win anything last year, however you could argue that they were in a rebuilding year, and the fruits of their labours from last year have come up this year. 

There is arguments for both styles of plays, however I think for the neutral (at least for me as a neutral) I'd rather see Liverpool or Spurs (city at a push, just because spending) win trophies over Chelsea and United.

[ViewsFromTheMiddle]

Arsenal used to be the only team I liked in the Prem, loved the way they played. Why did they have to become so useless? 

Not too fussed who wins it now, but Utd and Chelsea would probably be my last choice too. 

Anyway, back to Spurs and Wembley..

[Day]

5 hours ago, Andicis said:

I disagree, Spurs, in the last 20-30 years haven't really been a big team, win the odd cup here or there but never been a historical power house like Liverpool and United. You can't measure their progress with the progress of United, because United is a bigger club, with bigger finances and bigger clout in signing players. 

City didn't win anything last year, however you could argue that they were in a rebuilding year, and the fruits of their labours from last year have come up this year. 

There is arguments for both styles of plays, however I think for the neutral (at least for me as a neutral) I'd rather see Liverpool or Spurs (city at a push, just because spending) win trophies over Chelsea and United.

Would you say that Spurs are a bigger club with bigger finances and bigger clout in signing players than Leicester City?

Ok that was a freak season, but they finished 11 points behind them, Arsenal 10 points. That was diabolical from the pair of those clubs not to take advantage of the one season where the big 3 had the season off. 

Pochettinto recently said to win the Premier League you need "luck", well good luck waiting for the big 3 to all have another season off.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/tottenham-hotspur/story/3374571/mauricio-pochettino-i-dont-need-to-win-trophies-with-tottenham

Portsmouth, Wigan have both won the FA Cup in the time Spurs have just collected their 1 trophy, Birmingham, Cardiff, Swansea the League Cup. In 10 years that's 20 trophies, Spurs have won the same amount as these clubs, that is poor.

To exclude Spurs from the trophy county is ridiculous, fair enough they shouldn't be expected to have the same size cabinet of Man Utd, but they still need to put silverware in their cabinet and I'm sure with this new stadium the demands will be increased.

Harry Kane wants to win trophies to keep him at the club, Pochettino will need some more of that luck if he is to keep hold of him. What happens to Spurs if Kane was to leave? Serious amount of goals they would need to replace.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/01/08/harry-kanetottenham-need-start-winning-trophies-keep/

And as for Man City's rebuild, you could argue but it's a weak argument having spent the best part of £200m in the summer, Leicester City were current champions, Arsenal won the FA Cup who have been under construction for god knows how many years now. A repeat of last season would have seen Guardiola out the door, the owners demand trophies.

What I won't argue with is as a neutral I would prefer to watch others, if Liverpool who are by far the most entertaining side this year in the Premier League were on one channel and Man Utd the other, I would watch Liverpool as I'm watching purely for entertainment, I have no other interest.

If I had to choose a new club to be a fan of it would be a Mourinho side, hands down as that man wins trophies.

 

[Day]

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The reason we need to win something is because the game as well as glory, is about being there, about having cherished memories of a fantastic day. In over 40 years of following Spurs the moments that still give me goose bumps and memories I remember both vividly and warmly are from 37 years ago. When as a 17 year old who didn't get a final ticket waiting outside Wembley until the gates opened and getting in just in time to see Hoddle's deflected free kick get us a replay in the rarified atmosphere of the old Wembley stadium. Then queueing up all night with endless singing and banter to get a replay ticket and then the despair of falling behind only to pull it back and to win it with "THAT" goal from Ricky Villa. That's what winning the FA cup would do - give a growing generation of Spurs fans the "glory" and memories that will see them still loving their club 40/50 years from now.

 

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It would mean we get a taste of success, and hopefully for the team to think, yeah, this is what it's about, we want more of this.

 

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I would feel as good as I would if we won the CL.....I didnt know I felt this strongly about a trophy until we got knocked out last week.

 

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While I understand where he is coming from, I would disagree with Poch. 

I started supporting spurs when I watched them against Woolwich at Wembley in the FA Cup semi final and then against Nottingham Forest in the final.

I will always remember these two games. And I have supported spurs ever since.

 

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Domestic cups aren't import to clubs until they get near the final, they are important to the fans for the whole season though until you get knocked out. 
I'm 29 this month so don't remember us winning anything other than the league cup, this year is the year!

Entire thread full of this stuff https://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/what-would-an-fa-cup-win-mean-for-spurs.25412/

They sound like they want a trophy to me. How long will Pochettino be allowed to go on without delivering?

[ramsbottom]

On 3/17/2018 at 22:58, Paul71 said:

How can it be right they get to play at home in the FA Cup semi final? 

 

To be fair, they are in the away dressing room for this one...

And as others have pointed out, The FA have got bills to pay.  We didn't need Wembley, at least the £750m version that was built.  Finals could've been in Cardiff or the Emirates, and England could've toured like they did in the early noughties.  I loved it when they came to Pride Park and thumped Mexico 4-1.  If they insist on having a national stadium, they should've had the balls to move it to the middle of the country...

[Day]

2 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

If they insist on having a national stadium, they should've had the balls to move it to the middle of the country

Where the training base is, billed as a central location for players to get to, yet fans sucked into the capital and the costs which come from that. 

That's the FA for you right there.

Have to say I'm not a fan of turning the national team into a travelling circus, needs a home, but the location, extra games, club Wembley and the corporate ticket allocations to pay for it all, whilst they award themselves with obscene bonuses stinks. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Are people queuing up wishing is to win something cos the Mac1 team had flair?

Are people (except Celtic fans) queuing up wishing Liverpool some wins based on the Brendan Rodgers team which had flair?

Do Arsenal deserve more based on what they were ten years ago?

If Spurs win something, good for them, they've had a good, attractive side the last couple of years but if an attractive nearly side deosn't win anything, that's the game.

[Andicis]

4 hours ago, David said:

Would you say that Spurs are a bigger club with bigger finances and bigger clout in signing players than Leicester City?

I think you hint at it with what you said, it was a freak season, and therefore I'm not necessarily sure it's a good example, because it probably won't ever happen again like that, and it was the first season where Spurs became ''good''. They had just started to get it together, and they had a lot of inexperience in that squad, I'd wager put the current squad in that situation and they would win the league, but again, that's a null point because obviously that season has been and gone.

4 hours ago, David said:

Portsmouth, Wigan have both won the FA Cup in the time Spurs have just collected their 1 trophy, Birmingham, Cardiff, Swansea the League Cup. In 10 years that's 20 trophies, Spurs have won the same amount as these clubs, that is poor.

 Thing is, cup competitions are always a bit of a lottery, you have one off day and you're out of them again for another year, so it can be difficult to stay in form for these matches, however I think that we should also look at this clubs, what else did they have to play for? When Pompey, Swansea won these trophies they didn't have much to play for. For Cardiff, Wigan and Birmingham, were the cups the distractions what stomped them doing what they needed to in the league? For Spurs, being in the Champions League is worth more ££££££ than winning a trophy, should that be prioritised? 

 

4 hours ago, David said:

And as for Man City's rebuild, you could argue but it's a weak argument having spent the best part of £200m in the summer,

I would argue, it was Guardiola's first season in England, it was as much a learning curve for him as anything else, dealing with the schedule and the different intensity of play compared to the Bundesliga and La Liga. That amongst trying to fit in new players rather delayed them, and they had a poor middle of the season, which they had started to improve by the end.

 

4 hours ago, David said:

If I had to choose a new club to be a fan of it would be a Mourinho side, hands down as that man wins trophies.

Obviously this is subjective, but you'd choose United over City if you were supporting for trophies? I feel City will win more trophies under Pep than United will under Jose, but you never know.

[Andicis]

4 hours ago, David said:

They sound like they want a trophy to me. How long will Pochettino be allowed to go on without delivering?

A few more years yet. He is clearly building something, not sure that can be argued with. Although I accept the point that if they don't start winning players will think about leaving, however they have a young, quality squad with a good progressive manager, I think silverware will be coming their way soon.

[Day]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I think you hint at it with what you said, it was a freak season, and therefore I'm not necessarily sure it's a good example, because it probably won't ever happen again like that, and it was the first season where Spurs became ''good''. They had just started to get it together, and they had a lot of inexperience in that squad, I'd wager put the current squad in that situation and they would win the league, but again, that's a null point because obviously that season has been and gone.

But the fact still remains it was an opportunity for Spurs, you say it was the first season they became good, but only once out the previous 6 seasons did they finish outside the top 5, meanwhile Leicester were kicking it in the Championship with us. No way Leicester should have won that, both Arsenal and Spurs are not going to get an easier chance to win the league. 

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

 Thing is, cup competitions are always a bit of a lottery, you have one off day and you're out of them again for another year, so it can be difficult to stay in form for these matches, however I think that we should also look at this clubs, what else did they have to play for? When Pompey, Swansea won these trophies they didn't have much to play for. For Cardiff, Wigan and Birmingham, were the cups the distractions what stomped them doing what they needed to in the league? For Spurs, being in the Champions League is worth more ££££££ than winning a trophy, should that be prioritised? 

You might have a point here, but before this you was telling me how it was Spurs first good season yet now they are above the FA/League Cup.

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I would argue, it was Guardiola's first season in England, it was as much a learning curve for him as anything else, dealing with the schedule and the different intensity of play compared to the Bundesliga and La Liga. That amongst trying to fit in new players rather delayed them, and they had a poor middle of the season, which they had started to improve by the end.

Was also Conte's, won the Premier League. 

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Obviously this is subjective, but you'd choose United over City if you were supporting for trophies? I feel City will win more trophies under Pep than United will under Jose, but you never know.

Really not a Pep fan, no denying he's a top manager but I was never into his Tika Taka crap at Barca and have no time for La Liga. 

Admittedly the football is better at Man City but I feel nauseous with the love in and this genius status he's been given having walked into 3 top jobs.

Mourinho I just have more time for, bit of a nut job but there was a piece in the Mirror yesterday by Matic who talks about Mourinho's obsession with winning, I'm down with that. Doesn't care what the fans say, how many players he alienates, just focused on winning. 

[Day]

17 minutes ago, Andicis said:

A few more years yet. He is clearly building something, not sure that can be argued with. Although I accept the point that if they don't start winning players will think about leaving, however they have a young, quality squad with a good progressive manager, I think silverware will be coming their way soon.

They don't have a few years as the team will be dismantled as the big boys swoop in, Kane and Alli won't stay around, Alderweireld isn't being offered when he thinks he's worth now, Barca said to be watching closely. There is no time in football anymore.

This FA Cup is probably more important than you think now, whilst it won't be enough for some, it might allow them a bit extra time.

IF not and Kane scores a couple at the World Cup, I see bids coming in and he will be off this summer. 

[Andicis]

9 minutes ago, David said:

But the fact still remains it was an opportunity for Spurs, you say it was the first season they became good, but only once out the previous 6 seasons did they finish outside the top 5, meanwhile Leicester were kicking it in the Championship with us. No way Leicester should have won that, both Arsenal and Spurs are not going to get an easier chance to win the league. 

This is true, however it was just a freak season. Leicester played freakishly well over that season, and not one person could have anticipated them lasting an entire season at the top. I guess it shows how important of a factor confidence is. Spurs were in the top 5, but they had a lot of dead wood. It was Kane's first full season, and they weren't as cohesive upfront, without players like Son playing anything like how he plays now. All in all, they were caught out by an incredibly confident Leicester side that blind sided them. Arsenal is more of a valid point, as they were still known as a top team then, however Spurs and Arsenal played many more games that season than Leicester, so I think something can be attributed to that.

 

12 minutes ago, David said:

You might have a point here, but before this you was telling me how it was Spurs first good season yet now they are above the FA/League Cup.

They were still trying to obtain Europa League spots, which do provide a reasonable stream of extra revenue. They're certainly not above the cup, but winning a cup is very difficult, that's why it's prestigious. You have to ensure you stay focused for the entirety of the time you're in the cup, which can be difficult due to the large time frames it's over and the loss of form/injuries between games. Therefore it becomes difficult to prioritise over league positions.

 

13 minutes ago, David said:

Was also Conte's, won the Premier League. 

Agreed, but that Chelsea squad Conte inherited was better than the one Guardiola inherited, in my opinion. Conte still had the side that Jose took to the title before they went on strike the year after. So, I don't think it's a huge surprise. 

 

15 minutes ago, David said:

Admittedly the football is better at Man City but I feel nauseous with the love in and this genius status he's been given having walked into 3 top jobs.

I agree with this. In the Man City thread, I've questioned Pep and how successful he has really been, and I'd argue if he wins the Champions League with Man City he actually has done better than he did at Bayern and Barca, which were comparatively easier jobs.

 

16 minutes ago, David said:

Mourinho I just have more time for, bit of a nut job but there was a piece in the Mirror yesterday by Matic who talks about Mourinho's obsession with winning, I'm down with that. Doesn't care what the fans say, how many players he alienates, just focused on winning. 

However it remains to be seen whether his style with still reap the rewards that he wants.  I think football as a whole as changed, and I don't think parking the bus is as good of a strategy as it once was, this may hurt Jose. Nobody can question whether he wants to win, what I do question is does he still have the tactics to win? And if Jose isn't winning, will United keep backing him with the amount he's spending to try and win? If they think they can get a more stable manager, will they keep Jose? All these things remain to be seen, however I don't think he's such a feared manager as he once was, Real Madrid and their ego's affected Jose I feel.

[Andicis]

10 minutes ago, David said:

They don't have a few years as the team will be dismantled as the big boys swoop in, Kane and Alli won't stay around, Alderweireld isn't being offered when he thinks he's worth now, Barca said to be watching closely. There is no time in football anymore.

This FA Cup is probably more important than you think now, whilst it won't be enough for some, it might allow them a bit extra time.

IF not and Kane scores a couple at the World Cup, I see bids coming in and he will be off this summer. 

Spurs have already stated, and Kane has too, he will be staying next year. He wants to lead the team into their new stadium, and Kane is a bit different in the sense that he is a Spurs fan. Therefore it gives Spurs an extra advantage, also where would Kane go? Daniel Levy wouldn't sell for less than 200 million, and would never sell to a Premier League side either. Would Kane want to go stand in Ronaldo's shadow? Alderweireld has been injured all year and Spurs haven't looked worse for it, Davinson Sanchez looks a fan and able replacement, and about 9 years younger. I think Spurs have another season before the stars start to develop a want to leave.

[Day]

Just now, Andicis said:

Kane is a bit different in the sense that he is a Spurs fan

Was this a fancy dress party?

[MuespachRam]

37 minutes ago, Andicis said:

A few more years yet. He is clearly building something, not sure that can be argued with. Although I accept the point that if they don't start winning players will think about leaving, however they have a young, quality squad with a good progressive manager, I think silverware will be coming their way soon.

They have won one League Cup in the last 28 years (I haven’t checked dates but it is something like that) the same as Blackburn, Swansea and Boro...if they don’t win the FA Cup this season then players will start to leave...they can’t afford another season of nothing. 

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Was this a fancy dress party?

He was in Arsenal's youth team. How is he supposed to dress? Can't exactly turn up in a Spurs kit can he!

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

They have won one League Cup in the last 28 years (I haven’t checked dates but it is something like that) the same as Blackburn, Swansea and Boro...if they don’t win the FA Cup this season then players will start to leave...they can’t afford another season of nothing. 

Isn't it the same for all big clubs though, don't win trophies and your players want to leave? What about Liverpool, when did they last win a trophy? I don't see people stating their players are clamouring to leave?

[Day]

6 minutes ago, Andicis said:

He was in Arsenal's youth team. How is he supposed to dress? Can't exactly turn up in a Spurs kit can he!

He left Arsenal when he was 8. Born in 1993 so we're looking at 2001. This picture is 3 years later during the celebrations in 2004, he joined Spurs that same year when he was 11.

[Andicis]

Just now, David said:

He left Arsenal when he was 8. Born in 1993 so we're looking at 2001. This picture is 3 years later during the celebrations in 2004, he joined Spurs that year when he was 11.

 

Well, you've got me there. I don't doubt that, since he's been at Spurs from aged 11, he has an affinity with the club, and won't be pushing for a move as much as say Alli, who has no long term ties to the club.