Kernow Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Apologies for yet another FFP thread, but the Summer Transfer Suggestion thread got me thinking. I'm not an expert on the ins and outs of how FFP laws work, I believe I know the basics but don't have the interest to read into it with a great deal of depth. So for those who do, am I right in saying that losses are calculated over a 3-year period season-wise? I'm asking because if this is the case, it would technically mean the 2015/16 outgoings are no longer included would it not? Using rough figures, that season we had an expenditure of circa £25mil on transfers, and an income of £0. We all have our own ideas about which areas will need to be improved should we find ourselves in the Championship again next season, and it would be a lot easier to add real quality to those areas if we had an extra £25mil leeway in terms of meeting FFP regulations. I'm not saying we should go and chuck £25mil at any old players just because we can, but having the flexibility would be nice for GR to have, as he clearly didn't have that in the most recent summer. Unless I'm understanding it wrong, from next season our losses would be calculated for 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19. In the first of those years I think we were relatively even. ~£14m out on Nugent, Vydra and Anya. Then probably just short of that in from Hendrick, Grant, Shotton and Albentosa. For this season according to Transfermarkt we've spent around £12m and brought in £21m. The £25m loss removed from 2015/16 could make a big difference to us financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Just because we can spend it doesn't mean we will. Mel might not be willing to have his fingers burned again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKRam Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 And should we not progress with a promotion I believe we’ll need a replacement for Mr V. We’ll probably all moan about the ‘ridiculous price’ we get for him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, Kernow said: am I right in saying that losses are calculated over a 3-year period season-wise? I'm asking because if this is the case, it would technically mean the 2015/16 outgoings are no longer included would it not? Using rough figures, that season we had an expenditure of circa £25mil on transfers, and an income of £0. They're amortised over the length of their contracts, so all of the players from 2015/16 that are still here (or were still here at some point this season) will still be costing us in FFP terms - e.g. Bradley Johnson, £6m on a 4 year contract, will 'cost' us £1.5m this season. Off hand, Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman, Shackell and Weimann are still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I personally think Mel never really expected promotion this season and all eyes were on next year. Gary clearly felt with a bit of tweaking he could do it this year and he may well be right. I honestly think if we don't go up a lot of players will leave and a lot will arrive, just like the billy Davies era where popular players went and were replaced by players we hadn't really heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 26 minutes ago, Kernow said: Apologies for yet another FFP thread, but the Summer Transfer Suggestion thread got me thinking. I'm not an expert on the ins and outs of how FFP laws work, I believe I know the basics but don't have the interest to read into it with a great deal of depth. So for those who do, am I right in saying that losses are calculated over a 3-year period season-wise? I'm asking because if this is the case, it would technically mean the 2015/16 outgoings are no longer included would it not? Using rough figures, that season we had an expenditure of circa £25mil on transfers, and an income of £0. We all have our own ideas about which areas will need to be improved should we find ourselves in the Championship again next season, and it would be a lot easier to add real quality to those areas if we had an extra £25mil leeway in terms of meeting FFP regulations. I'm not saying we should go and chuck £25mil at any old players just because we can, but having the flexibility would be nice for GR to have, as he clearly didn't have that in the most recent summer. Unless I'm understanding it wrong, from next season our losses would be calculated for 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19. In the first of those years I think we were relatively even. ~£14m out on Nugent, Vydra and Anya. Then probably just short of that in from Hendrick, Grant, Shotton and Albentosa. For this season according to Transfermarkt we've spent around £12m and brought in £21m. The £25m loss removed from 2015/16 could make a big difference to us financially. Doesn't quite work like that Kernow. It's a rolling 3 years of accounts which I think are for calendar years for derby not seasons. But then you have to work through how the purchase prices come through the accounting numbers. To take your example. ...we bought players who cost 25m. On day 1 our accounts would show cash out of 25m and an asset of 25m worth appears on the other side so that the net "cost" is 0. Then in each accounting year, that asset (which is the value of the players you've bought) is revalued. If the value goes down then the difference is your ffp cost for that year. So suppose that we had spent 25m and put players on 3 year deals and they all stayed until the end of their contracts and left for 0. Then we will have to absorb 25m of ffp losses over the 3 years. So 8 and a bit million per year counts towards our ffp total. Now if we sold those players for 10m in the last year of their contract we replace the last bit of their value with 10m cash so make a bit of profit but not the full 10m. Of course, we are buying and selling all the time so that the accounts show the net result of all those transactions - which can further be complicated by contingent costs (eg the fee paid is not fully known up front as there may be add ons) and I think we have some discretion as to how we get from purchase price to 0 - don't have to do it in equal chunks. So bottom line.......no extra 25m to spend. Might get a bit if we can get some fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: They're amortised over the length of their contracts, so all of the players from 2015/16 that are still here (or were still here at some point this season) will still be costing us in FFP terms - e.g. Bradley Johnson, £6m on a 4 year contract, will 'cost' us £1.5m this season. Off hand, Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman, Shackell and Weimann are still here. think the straight line amortisation is gone replaced by an end of contract valuation. Any shortfall would be a big one off hit, Butters could be v expensive depending on what our carrying value is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 As far as I can tell we will have room to spend. Whether we spend it r not is another matter or even have it to spend. imo we are 4 first teasers short of a promotion team. LB, CM, L/RW, striker. Quality in these areas will be crucial to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said: As far as I can tell we will have room to spend. Whether we spend it r not is another matter or even have it to spend. imo we are 4 first teasers short of a promotion team. LB, CM, L/RW, striker. Quality in these areas will be crucial to progress. fluffers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Accounts should be published in next few years and may give a bit of a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 What’s the point in worrying if the penalties are so small? I don’t agree that they should be small but I don’t know of any huge fines or worse being handed out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ewe Ram said: What’s the point in worrying if the penalties are so small? I don’t agree that they should be small but I don’t know of any huge fines or worse being handed out If the team is not promoted to the Prem then they receive a transfer embargo, any deals have to be pre approved by the FA and football league. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/nottingham-forest/11388595/Nottingham-Forest-slapped-with-full-transfer-embargo-as-Dougie-Freedman-faces-up-to-size-of-his-task.html http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/fulham-nottingham-forest-and-bolton-placed-under-transfer-embargo-a6785306.html https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/15/leeds-blackburn-nottingham-forest-financial-fair-play-transfer-embargo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, rynny said: If the team is not promoted to the Prem then they receive a transfer embargo, any deals have to be pre approved by the FA and football league. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/nottingham-forest/11388595/Nottingham-Forest-slapped-with-full-transfer-embargo-as-Dougie-Freedman-faces-up-to-size-of-his-task.html http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/fulham-nottingham-forest-and-bolton-placed-under-transfer-embargo-a6785306.html https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/15/leeds-blackburn-nottingham-forest-financial-fair-play-transfer-embargo But if they get promoted by foul means they don’t get any significant punishment. I have a thing about the preferential treatment of the premiership so I’m probably not best person to comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ewe Ram said: But if they get promoted by foul means they don’t get any significant punishment. I have a thing about the preferential treatment of the premiership so I’m probably not best person to comment That is all down to the prem though, the football league wanted to be able to punish them more severely but weren't allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 hour ago, rynny said: If the team is not promoted to the Prem then they receive a transfer embargo, any deals have to be pre approved by the FA and football league. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/nottingham-forest/11388595/Nottingham-Forest-slapped-with-full-transfer-embargo-as-Dougie-Freedman-faces-up-to-size-of-his-task.html http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/fulham-nottingham-forest-and-bolton-placed-under-transfer-embargo-a6785306.html https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/15/leeds-blackburn-nottingham-forest-financial-fair-play-transfer-embargo Might not be so bad after some of the dross we've bought over the last 4 years!! ? Might even get some of the youth playing and values increasing if we were under embargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 The biggest problem will be that we will be stuck with the ones most don’t rate ie Butterfield Blackman Anya johnson all of which are very very expensive and even if they go on loan they will still cost us no doubt so if we genuinely want some cash Vydra is the one most likely to be in demand and probably by a relagated premiership club awash with money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 I can't see us selling Vydra and I can't see Vydra spoiling for a move, doesn't seem to be in his nature to be like that. Getting rid of Butterfield will be the biggest challenge, he has been put in the shop window at Sheffield Wednesday and instead of looking appealing he has dropped his trousers and spread his arse to the viewing public. They can't wait to be rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Spend that money Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 On 3/13/2018 at 12:25, Spanish said: think the straight line amortisation is gone replaced by an end of contract valuation. Any shortfall would be a big one off hit, Butters could be v expensive depending on what our carrying value is. Considering his 'performances' at Weds, we'll be lucky to a 12 pack of Stella and a signed photo of Debbie Harry for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: Considering his 'performances' at Weds, we'll be lucky to a 12 pack of Stella and a signed photo of Debbie Harry for him... now you're being silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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