Civilisation

[TigerTedd]

All the talk of gun control in another thread got me thinking about what is a civilised country. 

I’ve usually thought of the USA as a civilised country, but it actually becomes clearer the more you look at it, that they aren’t really. They’ve not moved on particularly far from the Wild West (IMO I may be wrong, feel free to discuss). 

So what is a civilised country?

What is the most civilised country in the world today?

That’s what this thread is about. In terms of education, human rights, tolerance, economy, poverty, health, security etc.

I realise it might depend on your political outlook. You may favour a very liberal, pro-equality, forward thinking regime. Or you may prefer a slightly more autocratic but we’ll run regime. 

Maybe microstates like Singapore and Monaco have got it right?

Maybe you like the idea of the revolutionary Scandinavian education system, or have places like New Zealand and Canada hit the nail on the head?

Maybe our western philosophy of what civilisation should look like is not the way to go, and Japan or South Korea have got the right mix, or even Abu Dhabi or Israel. 

Or maybe, just maybe, we give ourselves too much of a hard time, and we’ve actually done a pretty good job in Britian (assuming there is no perfect system, but maybe it’s the best of a bad bunch). 

Or if you ran you’re own country, would you take policies from other countries like a buffet and make a perfect country. A pinch of the Australian immigration system, a handful of Scandinavian education, etc.

I’d be really interested to see what everyone thinks. 

[Highgate]

Well you can rule out Abu Dhabi anyway, and all of the UAE for that matter.   Hmmmm, Finland is number 1 for me, but I'm saying that from a position of considerable ignorance. 

[1of4]

Any country should have good nationalised utilities, health service and puplic transport systems so as to be a benefit to the whole nation and not for just a few to make a profit. A wage and tax system that understands the need to reward those at the top and make sure those at the bottom are paid a true living wage and while not allowing the difference between the top and bottom of the pay scale to become obscene.

[TigerTedd]

23 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Any country should have good nationalised utilities, health service and puplic transport systems so as to be a benefit to the whole nation and not for just a few to make a profit. A wage and tax system that understands the need to reward those at the top and make sure those at the bottom are paid a true living wage and while not allowing the difference between the top and bottom of the pay scale to become obscene.

So which country does that then?

[Grimbeard]

34 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Well you can rule out Abu Dhabi anyway, and all of the UAE for that matter.   Hmmmm, Finland is number 1 for me, but I'm saying that from a position of considerable ignorance. 

Depends on your definition of civilisation. You or I may not like the UAE but others may think that it's a model civilisation.

The OP suggests that things like education, human rights and tolerance are an indication of civilisation but there are many folk in the world that view the acceptance of homosexuality or trans-sexuality as a sign of a sick and degenerate civilisation. Many of the world's ills are due to counties imposing their idea of civilisation on others.

My own view of a perfect civilisation would be a kind of fascism with a smiley face, obviously with me as the sole arbiter of what is good for everyone else. 

[Grimbeard]

18 minutes ago, Grimbeard said:

Depends on your definition of civilisation. You or I may not like the UAE but others may think that it's a model civilisation.

The OP suggests that things like education, human rights and tolerance are an indication of civilisation but there are many folk in the world that view the acceptance of homosexuality or trans-sexuality as a sign of a sick and degenerate civilisation. Many of the world's ills are due to counties imposing their idea of civilisation on others.

My own view of a perfect civilisation would be a kind of fascism with a smiley face, obviously with me as the sole arbiter of what is good for everyone else. 

Obviously should have been countries not counties, 

[TigerTedd]

20 minutes ago, Grimbeard said:

Depends on your definition of civilisation. You or I may not like the UAE but others may think that it's a model civilisation.

The OP suggests that things like education, human rights and tolerance are an indication of civilisation but there are many folk in the world that view the acceptance of homosexuality or trans-sexuality as a sign of a sick and degenerate civilisation. Many of the world's ills are due to counties imposing their idea of civilisation on others.

My own view of a perfect civilisation would be a kind of fascism with a smiley face, obviously with me as the sole arbiter of what is good for everyone else. 

I’m in total agreement. That’s what I meant at first. Our western view of what is civilised maybe isn’t the correct view. When the first brits landed in india to bring civilisation to the heathens, they stank and looked like a bunch of tramps and pirates. The Indians must’ve thought, if this is civilisation, I want no part of it thanks (it probably would’ve been the right reaction in hindsight). 

I also think that the perfect government is a benevolent dictatorship. Like a family usually is. With one person in charge with the genuine goodwill of his or her people at the forefront of all their actions. Apparently it’s been successful on a couple of occasions in history, but never lasts as the dictator eventually dies and some despot takes over. 

Also, your idea wouldn’t work, because it was my idea first and I should be the dictator (queue all out civil war). 

[TigerTedd]

3 minutes ago, Grimbeard said:

Obviously should have been countries not counties, 

I hate it when Nottinghamshire try to impose their idea of civilisation on us. 

[Grimbeard]

2 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

 

Also, your idea wouldn’t work, because it was my idea first and I should be the dictator (queue all out civil war). 

1

I'm sure as civilised people we can come to some sort of power-sharing arrangement, but only if you start to spell cue correctly.

[1of4]

37 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

So which country does that then?

One I'd like to be a citizen of.

[sage]

I always think of Scandanavia in this regard. Only been to Denmark and that was very well ordered, yet relaxed. The other most civilised places I have been are Bali and New Zealand. 

In terms of America being civilised far from it. Was it Wilde who said America is the only country to go from a state of barbarism to a state of decadence without an intervening period of civilisation. 

[TigerTedd]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

I always think of Scandanavia in this regard. Only been to Denmark and that was very well ordered, yet relaxed. The other most civilised places I have been are Bali and New Zealand. 

In terms of America being civilised far from it. Was it Wilde who said America is the only country to go from a state of barbarism to a state of decadence without an intervening period of civilisation. 

New Zealand for me, although I hear good things about Canada. 

[sage]

Just now, TigerTedd said:

New Zealand for me, although I hear good things about Canada. 

Hmmm some of them are French and all that Maple Syrup must make them a little over excitable. 

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, Grimbeard said:

Depends on your definition of civilisation. You or I may not like the UAE but others may think that it's a model civilisation.

Well yeah, that why I tend to offer my opinions on such matters and let other people speak for themselves.  And according to my idea of what a civilized country is, UAE falls short. A long way short.  I'd be curious to know how anyone could consider it civilized to be honest.

 

[McRainy]

From a Western perspective we tend to assume civilisation is more or less synonymous with an advanced technology, or at least, urbanisation.

For me the ideal would be something much simpler, more along the lines of small, hunter gatherer communities.

Civilisation then would be measured more by understanding and living in harmony with the environment, and having a rich spiritual and artistic tradition. 

[sage]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

Well yeah, that why I tend to offer my opinions on such matters and let other people speak for themselves.  And according to my idea of what a civilized country is, UAE falls short. A long way short.  I'd be curious to know how anyone could consider it civilized to be honest.

 

Their treatment of migrant workers is appalling for a starter, though I understand they have started to look at improving this.

Any country which treats other races or nationalities as second class citizens isn't civilised. 

[TigerTedd]

7 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

From a Western perspective we tend to assume civilisation is more or less synonymous with an advanced technology, or at least, urbanisation.

For me the ideal would be something much simpler, more along the lines of small, hunter gatherer communities.

Civilisation then would be measured more by understanding and living in harmony with the environment, and having a rich spiritual and artistic tradition. 

The Incan civilisation. Has a lot going for it, im a big fan. My wife will be pleased. 

[Highgate]

5 minutes ago, sage said:

Their treatment of migrant workers is appalling for a starter, though I understand they have started to look at improving this.

Any country which treats other races or nationalities as second class citizens isn't civilised. 

Precisely, or any country which treats women as second class citizens.  They are not too impressed with the notion of free speech either, or any member of the public having any say at all in how the country is run. 

[Highgate]

7 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

The Incan civilisation. Has a lot going for it, im a big fan. My wife will be pleased. 

DIdn't they practice child sacrifice? And weren't they empire builders themselves? Any group of people that thinks other tribes/nations/races are fair game for conquering isn't civilized in my book.  Apologies to your wife.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Highgate said:

DIdn't they practice child sacrifice? And weren't they empire builders themselves? Any group of people that thinks other tribes/nations/races are fair game for conquering isn't civilized in my book.  Apologies to your wife.

Haven't all nations/tribes/races/neighbours tried to conquer others at some time in the past? Name me one that hasn't.