ram1964 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, RamNut said: Best managers 1. Brian clough 2 the rest. Mr Clough was a phenomenon, not only for Derby County but for British football which sets him apart not wishing to forget Peter Taylor who played his part. I do have a lot of respect for some of the manager's on this list though ,that did the best with the hand that they were dealt,especially Nigel Clough. Some times the stats dont tell the full story. Perhaps it would be easier to name and shame the managers that proved to be wasteful, clueless and detrimental to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Points in the top division should be considered better than points gained in a lower division. Just giving the points per game average doesn't take into consideration the fact that some managers were having to compete had a higher level than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, Highgate said: Points in the top division should be considered better than points gained in a lower division. Just giving the points per game average doesn't take into consideration the fact that some managers were having to compete had a higher level than others. really? I'd say points with the likes of Igor, Saunders, Wright and going back further to George, McFarland, Hector etc are easier to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 17 minutes ago, Moist One said: really? I'd say points with the likes of Igor, Saunders, Wright and going back further to George, McFarland, Hector etc are easier to obtain. It's pretty indisputable that points are harder to obtain in the Premier League than in the Championship. So that simple table (although excellent in it's own way) at the start of this thread, can't be used to compare the quality of our managers directly. For example if Rowett gets us promoted this year, his points average will plummet next year. Will his managerial skills suddenly have deserted him? If you were to consider a points average table alone (without reference to the division) you would have to conclude yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 44 minutes ago, Highgate said: It's pretty indisputable that points are harder to obtain in the Premier League than in the Championship. So that simple table (although excellent in it's own way) at the start of this thread, can't be used to compare the quality of our managers directly. For example if Rowett gets us promoted this year, his points average will plummet next year. Will his managerial skills suddenly have deserted him? If you were to consider a points average table alone (without reference to the division) you would have to conclude yes. I think you have an argument for weighting the stats to favour top division points but it is questionable. In theory if you are in the higher division you might be expected to have players of greater caliber which should offset the "difficulty" factor. ... The points are for wining losing or drawing and are the same in each division. It isn't a racetrack where lap time is key and each second faster becomes logarithmically more difficult due to pure physics rather than the track and your position on it. Hummmm someone call the stats boys at Imperial college ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, jono said: I think you have an argument for weighting the stats to favour top division points but it is questionable. In theory if you are in the higher division you might be expected to have players of greater caliber which should offset the "difficulty" factor. ... The points are for wining losing or drawing and are the same in each division. It isn't a racetrack where lap time is key and each second faster becomes logarithmically more difficult due to pure physics rather than the track and your position on it. Hummmm someone call the stats boys at Imperial college ? There are all sorts of things that should be considered really. Players a manager inherited when taking over, financial backing by the owner, state of the club in general. For example, Nigel Clough managed during a very difficult period, inherited a poor enough squad and had to work on a shoestring. Rowett, Wassall and Clement on the other hand had a much more favourable environment to work in, and better players to start with. You simply can't not take the division into account. Derby County like any team are always going to find it harder to gain points in the Premier League than in the Championship. I'd be fairly sure that if you calculated our points average in the top tier of English football it would be lower than our points average in the second tier, That's not because we have better managers when we are in a lower division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Would be interested to see Jewell's stats split between Prem and Championship points per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 5 hours ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: Would be interested to see Jewell's stats split between Prem and Championship points per game. I think two separate tables (or I suppose three even) for manager's points gained in the different leagues would be very interesting...and not too hard to do...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazloW Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 While quite interesting, like most stats in football it doesn't really tell you who the 'best' manager is. As others have said, context is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Always said Darren Wassall was better than Brian Clough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 A bit like the win ratio table on the poll thread, points per game is a pretty flawed way to rank managers. I would question how anyone could deem points won against Rotherham or Barnsley to be the same achievement as winning points against Man Utd or Liverpool. As pointed out on the other thread, Jim Smith doesn't even appear in the top 10 in terms of highest win ratio - pretty sure everyone on here would have him in our top 5 best ever managers though. A better measure of managerial achievement is to measure where managers started with us & their subsequently highest achievement whilst at the club. Ergo, Brian Clough & Arthur Cox stand out for taking the club from the doldrums (18th in Division 2 & freshly relegated to Division 3 respectively) to a League title & 5th place in 1988/89 respectively. Jim Smith also ranks highly for getting us up & achieving 2 top half finishes. Dave Mackay is a harder one as he inherited a very fine team used to finishing top 5 but he won a league title which is going to trump any promotion. George Burley would also rank higher than Steve McClaren because he inherited a far worse situation. Likewise, Nigel Clough also saved us from third tier certainties although unlike Burley he didn't quite manage to ever get us into the playoffs (final season 10th, 7 points behind 6th). In that context, McClaren's reign (taking Derby from 10th to 3rd and then 8th the next season) looks a lot less favourable than these win ratio/points per game stats would seem to suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Err ram io Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I think that the work you have done with a win now equalling 3 points across the eras is very nice. Reading all the comments on this thread does leave one thinking about the phrase lies damned ies and statistics. I was wondering how else managers could be rated? A simple goals scored per game rating might allow us to rate our DCFC managers in terms of "entertainment". Rating managers in terms of players in terms of international caps whilst playing for Derby would be a nightmare to dig out. Rating managers in terms of % profit made in transfer market would also be a good one to dig out. I would think Nigel might do better than Paul Clement here? Being our "shrewdest" manager in the transfer market might open eyes in terms of other factors. Of course it's possible to rate our managers based upon what they did next after leaving Derby. Mac wouldn't rate highly going to Newcastle and getting sacked. PC ditto. BC did OK (European cups). From the table shown above there is no clue that BC would do better at Forest. Overall he had good seasons and bad seasons there - what was his points per game stat at Forest ? I do like the fact that DW is riding high on this table - can we do a stat for all his u23 games? In some way we need a score based upon expectations. Did a specific manager meet or exceed expectations? That is harder to sort out statistics for but it is possible..... If we calculate our rolling average position for last 3 seasons that provides a baseline to measure something against. GR season 2017-2018 would be seen as better than last 3 baseline value. In such a system promotion to a higher division would have the expectation of relegation! Something to think about anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eargasm Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 So if Gary continues with the same ratio 1.76 x 20 games, that's another 35 points plus our 49 making a total of 84 points, enough for autos ????? ( probably not ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I think an interesting statistic to look at would be how many places had the club changed from when the new manager arrived to when that manager left? There would have to be a ‘peak’ and ‘trough’ column too though to add some context. Something ideal may look like: manager: highest pos: lowest pos: pos when arrived: position when left: inc/dec in position: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Billy Davies more points per game than Arthur. But can anyone say they enjoyed the football more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admira Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Chester40 said: I think two separate tables (or I suppose three even) for manager's points gained in the different leagues would be very interesting...and not too hard to do...? I’ll see what I can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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