StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Can anybody answer my question of why there aren’t more black goalkeepers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Can anybody answer my question of why there aren’t more black goalkeepers? Lack of decent Role Models - when (for example) Brazil were great in 1970, they had Pele, Rivalhino, Jairzinho, etc, - players that people wanted to emulate - but their keeper hardly had anything to do and was a bit naff anyway - no want wanted to be like him.....It'll be the same with young Derby fans now who want to be the next Nuge, Lawrence, Carson - but no-one wants to be the next Butterfield.....in 15 years time, people will be asking why there are so few slow, negative, sideways passing, beardy players.... You could (on a slightly more sensible level) also make an argument for natural physical attributes of strength, power, pace being more aligned to black players so they will be more likely to play in those positions that make use of their talents - there aren't a huge number of white sprinters or black darts players either - we're all different however much some would like us to all be the same...players play in positions that suit their naturally given talents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 hours ago, SaintRam said: You find, generally that all that happens is shortlists for interviews grow by 1 so all the white people who would be interviewed will still be. Therefore, if there isn't a racist culture preventing minority coaches from getting interviews (which there was in the NFL, where the Rooney rule comes from) then literally nothing will change and no-one needs to worry. But the argument of "if you're good enough you'll get the job regardless" doesn't work unless you have a deep understanding of how the industry is currently run and know that that is the case. For example, to bring it back to the NFL - many black coaches including Mike Tomlin, head coach of the Steelers (and a very good one) have talked about how they wouldn't have gotten opportunities in coaching at all without the Rooney Rule. The real success of the Rooney rule in the NFL was that black coaches (who were good enough) got on the coaching ladder (when they otherwise would not, because racists would prefer a worse non-black option). The requirement to interview minority coaches for the head coach role meant that the barriers preventing minorities from becoming lesser coaches in the first place almost entirely collapsed, because teams needed more choice. More coaches means a higher number of good coaches and the argument of "if you're good enough you'll get the job" comes into effect. But the problem was they couldn't even get there. And if there is a problem with racism in the FA then the problem here will be black coaches not getting opportunities further down the ladder. What *should* happen is you start seeing more minority coaches in coaching teams, then some will rise up to success at a managerial level. It's not like all of a sudden every England manager from here on out is going to be the black managers you've heard of. Modern goalkeepers are pretty athletic. They also need to jump and white men can’t jump. Wesley Snipes says so. But this is what I’m getting at. There may well be differences between people of different races, be they biological or cultural that might lead individuals more or less likely to be qualified to perform certain duties or even want to pursue certain avenues. No ones going to say ‘I’m happy for my centre half to be black, but having a black goalkeepers a step too far.’ And yet here we are, with hardly any black goalies. Do we need a Rooney rule for goalkeeers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Modern goalkeepers are pretty athletic. They also need to jump and white men can’t jump. Wesley Snipes says so. But this is what I’m getting at. There may well be differences between people of different races, be they biological or cultural that might lead individuals more or less likely to be qualified to perform certain duties or even want to pursue certain avenues. No ones going to say ‘I’m happy for my centre half to be black, but having a black goalkeepers a step too far.’ And yet here we are, with hardly any black goalies. Do we need a Rooney rule for goalkeeers? If BAME folks come forward saying they're trying to become goalkeepers but aren't getting any opportunity for some reason, then it might be worth a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, SaintRam said: If BAME folks come forward saying they're trying to become goalkeepers but aren't getting any opportunity for some reason, then it might be worth a shot. I actually dont know why that reply was to you, was supposed to be for Gaspode. It doesn’t actually matter if BAME players have complaint, it’s more if the complaint is valid. Even the academic who came up with the evidence there was an under representation of BAME coaches said it was who you know not what you know. An old boys club then, racialised without justification so some people could get their names in the papers and gain power. Worked a treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, StringerBell said: I actually dont know why that reply was to you, was supposed to be for Gaspode. It doesn’t actually matter if BAME players have complaint, it’s more if the complaint is valid. Even the academic who came up with the evidence there was an under representation of BAME coaches said it was who you know not what you know. An old boys club then, racialised without justification so some people could get their names in the papers and gain power. Worked a treat. Thank goodness old boy's clubs are so liberal and open-minded or else most of the UK establishment would be dominated by very similar people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Thank goodness old boy's clubs are so liberal and open-minded or else most of the UK establishment would be dominated by very similar people. Yes old boys networks elevate people they have no connection with because they’re white. That’s what old boys network means ? We’ve now arrived at a situation in which BAME people will be given an opportunity based on their race when there was no evidence of them being discriminated against based on their race. Meanwhile white people who are also not part of the old boys network get forgotten about because they share skin colour with the old boys network. There is evidence of racism, it’s just not where you’re pointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 The Rooney Rule, or something similar seems like a harmless nudge to me. It could well have beneficial results in helping qualified people from ethnic minorities get the coaching and managerial positions their talents warrant. All but the most ardent racist would surely agree that it's at least plausible that an undercurrent of racism may still exist within the FA or similar institutions. So why not give this minor alteration a go and lets see if it can do some good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Yes old boys networks elevate people they have no connection with because they’re white. That’s what old boys network means ? We’ve now arrived at a situation in which BAME people will be given an opportunity based on their race when there was no evidence of them being discriminated against based on their race. Meanwhile white people who are also not part of the old boys network get forgotten about because they share skin colour with the old boys network. There is evidence of racism, it’s just not where you’re pointing. I thought this thread was a good debate until you showed up with your usual racism towards whites schtick. I guess you have nothing to say about the Rosenior article I posted or @SaintRams excellent and eloquent post. Just ignore those and they are difficult to argue with. You probably even agree with them. Not everything in this world is done to screw over white men, even if some people think this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Highgate said: The Rooney Rule, or something similar seems like a harmless nudge to me. It could well have beneficial results in helping qualified people from ethnic minorities get the coaching and managerial positions their talents warrant. All but the most ardent racist would surely agree that it's at least plausible that an undercurrent of racism may still exist within the FA or similar institutions. So why not give this minor alteration a go and lets see if it can do some good? I may be missing something, but aren't they only proposing to introduce the Rooney rule to the selection of the next England manager? - if so, the impact on the rest of football will be negligible.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Gaspode said: I may be missing something, but aren't they only proposing to introduce the Rooney rule to the selection of the next England manager? - if so, the impact on the rest of football will be negligible.... All future roles in the England set-up, which I'd imagine is any coaching post from manager of the senior side right down to whatever the youngest age group youth coaches are. I agree though, I don't think this will have the effect they want. It's highly unlikely it will replicate the NFL's success in such a focused area. I suppose though it is the FA who run the coaching courses in the first place so maybe it will. Who knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Alpha said: You don't solve racism by being anti racist. You solve it by seeing people as people. I think you’re confusing personal prejudice with systemic racism. On a personal level yes, I agree, people are people and no one cares, unless they happen to be prejudiced. What that doesn’t address is the power structures in society which systematically disadvantage black people from day one. Anti racism isn’t about seeing race everywhere, it’s about recognising that just not being racist yourself doesn’t do anything to counter the disadvantages black people encounter at every stage of their lives and careers. It is far from being a level playing field, and these anti racist measures attempt to address that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Gaspode said: I may be missing something, but aren't they only proposing to introduce the Rooney rule to the selection of the next England manager? - if so, the impact on the rest of football will be negligible.... You correct as far as i know. But maybe that will just be the first step. Personally I'd like to see it as standard practice for all professional football clubs. What harm can it do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 19 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Yes old boys networks elevate people they have no connection with because they’re white. That’s what old boys network means ? We’ve now arrived at a situation in which BAME people will be given an opportunity based on their race when there was no evidence of them being discriminated against based on their race. Meanwhile white people who are also not part of the old boys network get forgotten about because they share skin colour with the old boys network. There is evidence of racism, it’s just not where you’re pointing. 6 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I thought this thread was a good debate until you showed up with your usual racism towards whites schtick. I guess you have nothing to say about the Rosenior article I posted or @SaintRams excellent and eloquent post. Just ignore those and they are difficult to argue with. You probably even agree with them. Not everything in this world is done to screw over white men, even if some people think this is the case. I don't know much about racism other than what I'm force fed by the media tbh but there is some truth in the @StringerBell post you refer - a big percentage of the Brexit vote was down to normal people feeling let down by the system and not feeling as though they have a voice for example. No one is denying that racism doesn't exist. No one is denying that other minority groups don't suffer prejudice. But prejudice can be found everywhere and a different approach to tackling it needs to be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I guess you have nothing to say about the Rosenior article I posted or @SaintRams excellent and eloquent post. I'm not sure anyone read them . It's very easy to see the negatives of enforcing a Rooney Rule in British football - but they both gave good evidence of the potential benefits, however small those may be So for me the crux is, as @Highgate says - should we not give this minor alteration a go and lets see if it can do some good. Or should we just do nothing and wait for casual racism to naturally die out on its own somehow? For the record, I'm far from convinced that this is a stellar idea in British football, but for the 5 pages of people complaining about it, I'm not seeing any evidence that it will make the situation worse for anyone seeking employment as a manager/coach. In which case it feels like the level of discontent amongst fans is unwarranted. If it doesn't harm you personally in anyway, why let it bother you? Also - the clubs all voted to go ahead with it, so it's their choice really. It's not being forced on anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 hours ago, StringerBell said: Can anybody answer my question of why there aren’t more black goalkeepers? Is it the same reason that there aren't more black right-wingers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Gaspode said: I may be missing something, but aren't they only proposing to introduce the Rooney rule to the selection of the next England manager? - if so, the impact on the rest of football will be negligible.... No - alo an 18 month trial in the EFL Quote A pilot of the so-called 'Rooney Rule' will extend to all first-team vacancies at EFL clubs from 1 January for 18 months, the EFL confirmed on Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 24 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I thought this thread was a good debate until you showed up with your usual racism towards whites schtick. I guess you have nothing to say about the Rosenior article I posted or @SaintRams excellent and eloquent post. Just ignore those and they are difficult to argue with. You probably even agree with them. Not everything in this world is done to screw over white men, even if some people think this is the case. You have shown a complete lack of empathy towards people who have lost their jobs based on their race because you don’t have a problem with members of that particular race being discriminated against. You are in no position to pontificate against racism because you have no problem with racism in principle. You are for/against racism depending on whether or not the context aligns with your own progressive political leaning. You are also incapable of nuance and mischaracterise others opinions as the most extreme caricature of their actual position. You’ll see I actually responded to the academic whose study prompted this, but I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your grauniad article in which it is revealed Liam Rosenior’s friend thinks the world is racist and a doorman was once racist to his dad. Great contribution there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Is it the same reason that there aren't more black right-wingers? That’s a good un that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Yeah, but you're a woman and see things differently A rather telling remark. White cishet middle class males don’t see the need for anti discrimination measures shocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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