Guest Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 9 hours ago, StivePesley said: Oh did you mention your black and Asian friends? I'm not a murderer. Did I mention that some of my best friends are alive? Once again true to form. I don't need to pretend thank you. By best friend from school is black. Don't see him so much now because he's in prison but doubt you will find it acceptable me mentioning that. I left school and went to work in a predominantly Asian firm for 15 years. I know you think I am an uneducated racist but I actually believe I am probably in a much better position to comment on it than you, and I'm certainly not afraid to tell you that people like you make the situation a hell of a lot worse. Feel free to respond to this but don't expect any further responses from me (not that I expect that to bother you), I'm not prepared to debate with someone who has openly just branded me a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 11 hours ago, ossieram said: Showed the picture to 2 black workmates today and they both laughed, when I told them he had been branded a racist by some people they laughed again. Both basically called the people that were moaning idiots. Thank goodness I'm not the only one who has imaginary black friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Why should I have to look it up? If I don't the history of it there's a reasonable likelihood that black people of my age and younger won't either, so why bring it to people's attention and make an issue of it. Just the same as I don't expect German people apologising for all of their lives for bombing my ancestors, I don't expect to spend all of my life being apologetic because my ancestors treated their ancestors badly. FWIW I actually believe my black and asian friends would be cringing at the supposed defence of them on this thread. Just want to point out Im not looking to defend anybody on this. ‘White knighting’ has never been helpful, but neither is putting your head in the sand. I’d rather listen to others and understand why something is an issue rather than thinking there’s no issue at all. Looking and understanding the past helps, surely? With your German analogy, I don’t think people are wanting apologies, but again to maybe look back and go ‘let’s not go back to that’ is only a good thing? Im not quite sure how ‘reasonable likelihood’ really works? Don’t get me wrong and think this is ‘cringey’. I see your point, in fact I’d say we aren’t too far off actually agreeing because we are both saying racism=bad. All I’m saying is, in context to this situation, that we need to understand the past a little better. Especially with people thinking there’s no difference between whiting/blacking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, TuffLuff said: Just want to point out Im not looking to defend anybody on this. ‘White knighting’ has never been helpful, but neither is putting your head in the sand. I’d rather listen to others and understand why something is an issue rather than thinking there’s no issue at all. Looking and understanding the past helps, surely? With your German analogy, I don’t think people are wanting apologies, but again to maybe look back and go ‘let’s not go back to that’ is only a good thing? Im not quite sure how ‘reasonable likelihood’ really works? Don’t get me wrong and think this is ‘cringey’. I see your point, in fact I’d say we aren’t too far off actually agreeing because we are both saying racism=bad. All I’m saying is, in context to this situation, that we need to understand the past a little better. Especially with people thinking there’s no difference between whiting/blacking up. There’s a difference between understanding the past and being a slave to it. Somebody in the 1930’s blacked up for reasons we find disagreeable therefore we take the agency away from a French footballer blacking up for completely different reasons in 2017 by superimposing the past context over the actual here and now context? Awful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 I wonder what people think of Al Jolson? Wonder what many think of this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson Performing in blackface makeup was a theatrical convention of many entertainers at the beginning of the 20th century, having its origin in the minstrel show.[28] Working behind a blackface mask gave the performer "a sense of freedom and spontaneity that he had never known".[14] According to film historian Eric Lott, for the white minstrel man "to put on the cultural forms of 'blackness' was to engage in a complex affair of manly mimicry.... To wear or even enjoy blackface was literally, for a time, to become black, to inherit the cool, virility, humility, abandon, or gaité de coeur that were the prime components of white ideologies of black manhood." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colm Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 19 hours ago, sage said: In as poorly an argued thread as this, to write the worst post is quite an achievement. Didn't realise this was a serious thread... most people are on blatant wind ups and comparing authentic fancy dress to genuine racism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Thank goodness I'm not the only one who has imaginary black friends! Who said anything about friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, StringerBell said: There’s a difference between understanding the past and being a slave to it. Somebody in the 1930’s blacked up for reasons we find disagreeable therefore we take the agency away from a French footballer blacking up for completely different reasons in 2017 by superimposing the past context over the actual here and now context? Awful! Who’s saying anything about being a slave to it? All I’m saying is there needs to be an understanding about why people do find the act offensive. He meant no harm, but it was still a silly act based on ignorance. He apologised and we should all move on (please can we move on). That’s all ive ever tried to say and I’m not saying more. I’m not sure why it appears so controversial that there are reasons that blacking up is seen as offensive, even in ignorance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, rynny said: I wonder what people think of Al Jolson? Wonder what many think of this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson Performing in blackface makeup was a theatrical convention of many entertainers at the beginning of the 20th century, having its origin in the minstrel show.[28] Working behind a blackface mask gave the performer "a sense of freedom and spontaneity that he had never known".[14] According to film historian Eric Lott, for the white minstrel man "to put on the cultural forms of 'blackness' was to engage in a complex affair of manly mimicry.... To wear or even enjoy blackface was literally, for a time, to become black, to inherit the cool, virility, humility, abandon, or gaité de coeur that were the prime components of white ideologies of black manhood." Most I’ve seen on Al Jolson appears split. Must say I’m not really sure what I really think. What I’ll say is your opinion is probably based on how you interpret that last sentence by Eric Lott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Who’s saying anything about being a slave to it? All I’m saying is there needs to be an understanding about why people do find the act offensive. He meant no harm, but it was still a silly act based on ignorance. He apologised and we should all move on (please can we move on). That’s all ive ever tried to say and I’m not saying more. I’m not sure why it appears so controversial that there are reasons that blacking up is seen as offensive, even in ignorance? I don’t give a monkeys if some ideologue is offended. If you give a **** about somebody’s offence taking, and their nonsensical ‘historical context’ argument they use to justify their offence then you are being a slave to it, whether you frame it like that or not. Griezmann will be fine, others however would lose their jobs over this. Griezmann didn’t mean any harm though I agree. More importantly, he didn’t cause any harm either and he owes nobody an apology. This is the appropriate response. “A footballer went to a fancy dress party and harmed nobody did he? Which ***** decided this was newsworthy? No I am not going to throw another human being under the bus for your inquisition by twitter.” It is not automatically racist to black up. The context of the particular scenario is the context that is relevant in determining whether it is racist or not, not some historical matter that somebody else wants to dredge up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, StringerBell said: This is the appropriate response. “A footballer went to a fancy dress party and harmed nobody did he? Which ***** decided this was newsworthy? No I am not going to throw another human being under the bus for your inquisition by twitter.” I'd probably alter it slightly to “A footballer went to a fancy dress party in a spectacularly ignorant and socially unacceptable costume and although he physically harmed nobody, the only newsworthy part was that it publically displayed what an idiot he is (and presumably whichever of his associates didn't think to stop him). The subsequent furore on Twitter was the most regrettable part as it triggered both the politically correct lefties and the smug alt-rights who take great delight in being all over this sort of non-argument and it went on for days, whilst everyone else concluded that they are as bad as each other.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 Anthony Joshua's alleged racism not so newsworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, StivePesley said: I'd probably alter it slightly to “A footballer went to a fancy dress party in a spectacularly ignorant and socially unacceptable costume and although he physically harmed nobody, the only newsworthy part was that it publically displayed what an idiot he is (and presumably whichever of his associates didn't think to stop him). The subsequent furore on Twitter was the most regrettable part as it triggered both the politically correct lefties and the smug alt-rights who take great delight in being all over this sort of non-argument and it went on for days, whilst everyone else concluded that they are as bad as each other.” Socially unacceptable according to whom? And for what reason? Quentin Crisp wears clothes in a socially unacceptable way. 1930’s version of Stive disapproves for some reason or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 3 hours ago, ossieram said: Who said anything about friends? Well you're not going to admit that they are your servants on here are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 59 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Socially unacceptable according to whom? And for what reason? Quentin Crisp wears clothes in a socially unacceptable way. 1930’s version of Stive disapproves for some reason or another. Why don't you test your assumption that it is not. Get yourself to Brixton, black up and go for a few drinks. Let us know how well you where accepted. I am genuinely interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 1 hour ago, StringerBell said: Socially unacceptable according to whom? And for what reason? Quentin Crisp wears clothes in a socially unacceptable way. 1930’s version of Stive disapproves for some reason or another. Its socially unacceptable to people who have appointed themselves to talk on behalf of society. Actually could do with a list of fancy dress outfits that are socially acceptable before New Years Eve. Was going to do Homer Simpson but with him being fat, bald and yellow could land myself in some hot water! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, McRamFan said: Why don't you test your assumption that it is not. Get yourself to Brixton, black up and go for a few drinks. Let us know how well you where accepted. I am genuinely interested... Are people particularly wise in Brixton or something? Ooooh it’s because they’re black. I should do things or not do things because black people want me to or not to. Am I doing progression right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Are people particularly wise in Brixton or something? Ooooh it’s because they’re black. I should do things or not do things because black people want me to or not to. Am I doing progression right? You say a lot, all I asked was for you to back it up, clearly you cannot. Not everyone in Brixton is black, there you go with the generalisations that you moan about other people making. There are women there too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 30 minutes ago, McRamFan said: Why don't you test your assumption that it is not. Get yourself to Brixton, black up and go for a few drinks. Let us know how well you where accepted. I am genuinely interested... Why did you choose Brixton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 30 minutes ago, McRamFan said: You say a lot, all I asked was for you to back it up, clearly you cannot. Not everyone in Brixton is black, there you go with the generalisations that you moan about other people making. There are women there too... Back what up? Generally black people are over represented in Brixton which is precisely why you brought it up, - the people we are talking about are black people. You brought black people into the conversation. You appear not to know my views on generalisations. What have women got to do with blacking up for fancy dress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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