Griezmann

[Stive Pesley]

It's quite amusing to see the level of outrage at the perceived "PC-Brigade". A bunch of people triggered into offence by a bunch of people being triggered into offence. Hopefully at least some of you see the irony and realise that the world gets on a lot better if we show each other love, tolerance and respect and stop letting them pit us against each other

Right - got to go. I've been invited to the local Scope fancy dress Xmas party and I'm going as my hero Dr Stephen Hawking. Just got to go pick up my wheelchair and practice drooling out the side of my mouth

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. But there is an important point to add that history shouldn’t simply be forgotten, ignored or swept under the carpet.

its a bit like Jews remembering holocaust day. It’s right to remember it, but what they don’t do is blame any current Germans. Whereas black people have a day to remember slavery, and all white people who had nothing to do with it, seem to e obliged to feel guilty and apologetic.

Having said that, black people still start out life not on a level playing field, before a ball has even been kicked (although I think I that’s more true in America these days), and that’s because if the damage done throughout history. So a bit of positive discrimination is needed to level the playing field in the first place. But where do you draw the line, or where do you declare ‘mission complete’ the playing field is now level, we don’t need to keep doing positive discrimination anymore?

I've worked in Africa a lot and interestingly on quite a few occasions I have met locals who bemoan the fact that their ancestors weren't taken as slaves to America so they could be American now. They see Black Americans who have cars and live reasonably well with TVs and have more than enough to eat, and have a lifestyle that many Africans can only dream about. 

And regarding the slavery day lets not forget that it was Africans who caught other Africans and took them to the coast to sell them to Europeans. I've spoken to many in Ghana who can't really come to terms with the fact that the Asante nation was one of the worst offenders. Tribes throughout west Africa grew rich from the trade and after UK stopped slavery there was economic collapse and the UK government paid reparations to the chiefs. 

There was also as many slaves from central and east Africa who were taken by Arab slavers to the Middle East  

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

I doubt it, but that doesn’t mean what he did wasn’t a racist act. It was probably out of ignorance rather than hatred but it still unfortunately stands. This is because white people blacking up historically was to mock a group they didn’t even consider the same race to be lazy, dumb and feckless. This wasn’t just a blight on the past, it happened an a huge scale for over a century. So it has a lot of connotations, dare I say more than what some on here realise.

He apologised, it’s pretty obvious that it was an ignorance. Hopefully he learns from it. No one needs to defend blacking up!

Surely by its definition racism has got to be something that is intended?

[TuffLuff]

17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Surely by its definition racism has got to be something that is intended?

By definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

Was that Griezmann’s intention? I very much doubt it and I think he can be given the benefit of the doubt.

BUT the act of blacking up traditionally does fit the definition because of Jim Crow and other routines that were set up to mock a group they believed were below them.

Hence why no matter the intention it was rightly called out. In these circumstances I consider education on all sides is vital on and everybody should try and listen to why something is right/wrong before making a conclusion

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

By definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

Was that Griezmann’s intention? I very much doubt it and I think he can be given the benefit of the doubt.

BUT the act of blacking up traditionally does fit the definition because of Jim Crow and other routines that were set up to mock a group they believed were below them.

Hence why no matter the intention it was rightly called out. In these circumstances I consider education on all sides is vital on and everybody should try and listen to why something is right/wrong before making a conclusion

But for it to be racism Griezmann would have had to have been doing it to promote his belief that his race was superior.

It's as simple as that for me.

Anything beyond that and you are trying to create racism where it doesn't exist.

[Stive Pesley]

37 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But for it to be racism Griezmann would have had to have been doing it to promote his belief that his race was superior.

It's as simple as that for me.

Anything beyond that and you are trying to create racism where it doesn't exist.

So you are saying you think it's OK to indulge in racist behaviour as long as you don't believe that you yourself mean it in a racist way?

Probably easier and less stress to just not indulge in racist behaviour. That's not a big ask (and one that most non-idiots seem to manage just fine)

 

[Spanish]

isn't it more of an offence issue, some may find it offensive because they believe it to be racially motivated.  This is quite subjective and by their nature will create debate which is unlikely to result in wide spread agreement.

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So you are saying you think it's OK to indulge in racist behaviour as long as you don't believe that you yourself mean it in a racist way?

Probably easier and less stress to just not indulge in racist behaviour. That's not a big ask (and one that most non-idiots seem to manage just fine)

 

"Indulge" 

Followed by "most non-idiots"

Text book.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So you are saying you think it's OK to indulge in racist behaviour as long as you don't believe that you yourself mean it in a racist way?

Probably easier and less stress to just not indulge in racist behaviour. That's not a big ask (and one that most non-idiots seem to manage just fine)

 

How can you behave in a racist manner if you are not a racist.

Racism is your beliefs that your race is superior to another.

[TuffLuff]

53 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But for it to be racism Griezmann would have had to have been doing it to promote his belief that his race was superior.

It's as simple as that for me.

Anything beyond that and you are trying to create racism where it doesn't exist.

Ok, where in the definition does it talk about the person? If you black up in ignorance rather than hate it’s still a racist act?

[Colm]

Racist people eat food. If you eat food you're indulging in racist behaviour

[Norman]

6 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Ok, where in the definition does it talk about the person?

I think your take on the definition and this scenario does more damage on the racism subject than anything. Just my opinion.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Ok, where in the definition does it talk about the person? If you black up in ignorance rather than hate it’s still a racist act?

So who is it that is believing that one race is better than another due to this 'blacking up'?

[Stive Pesley]

28 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

How can you behave in a racist manner if you are not a racist.

That's the point. With ease - hence the "I'm not racist but..." signifier

If you're strictly defining racism then how about you allow a definition of casual racism - that might help

https://itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au/what-can-you-do/speak/casual-racism

[TigerTedd]

4 hours ago, SaintRam said:

In this scenario, why, if you blacked up, did your friend not "white up"? 

Obviously, in normal circumstances its perfectly normal and common for people to dress up as characters portrayed by members of another race without changing their skin colour, as I've pointed out before (my contribution to this 'discussion' being continually that the blacking up is an unnecessary step whether you find it offensive or not) -

But it's a bit of a hole in the context of your story - as not only did your black friend not feel the need to white up, he is the one who suggested you black up. 

Frankly, I don't think he likes you.

Fair point. And I should probably just leave it there as I’m stretching the metaphor far too far. 

But, in this scenario, he’s wearing a blond wig, an eye patch, and a helmet with horns on. He’s quite clearly Thor. 

I’m wearing black spandex. Unless I black up, I could be black widow, black cat, even batman with a lost cape. The black face would be the one thing that gives it away. 

A situation that always use to make me laugh at work, was when people are so afraid by race, they can’t even say it. 

Youd send someone to collect something from someone on the next floor up. 

‘Who am I looking for? What does he look like?’

’well, he’s got glasses, short hair, he’s kind of tall, got a birth mark on his right butt cheek.’

he might be the only black guy on the floor, but they’d always be terrified of saying, ‘oh, and he’s black.’

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

That's the point. With ease - hence the "I'm not racist but..." signifier

If you're strictly defining racism then how about you allow a definition of casual racism - that might help

https://itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au/what-can-you-do/speak/casual-racism

OK well I'm going to look back through here and see how many threads have been started every time a black rapper has used the word nigger in one of their songs, I assume there will be lots...

[SaintRam]

2 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

Fair point. And I should probably just leave it there as I’m stretching the metaphor far too far. 

But, in this scenario, he’s wearing a blond wig, an eye patch, and a helmet with horns on. He’s quite clearly Thor. 

I’m wearing black spandex. Unless I black up, I could be black widow, black cat, even batman with a lost cape. The black face would be the one thing that gives it away. 

A situation that always use to make me laugh at work, was when people are so afraid by race, they can’t even say it. 

Youd send someone to collect something from someone on the next floor up. 

‘Who am I looking for? What does he look like?’

’well, he’s got glasses, short hair, he’s kind of tall, got a birth mark on his right butt cheek.’

he might be the only black guy on the floor, but they’d always be terrified of saying, ‘oh, and he’s black.’

I'd argue the reason there's any confusion as to which character you are is down to a lack of effort in the costume or a poor/lazy choice of character.

Your friend (who's becoming more intelligent with every post) clearly wanted to be Thor as its a very recognisable look, and he wanted to get past the awkward "so who are you supposed to be?" conversations that I guarantee you would STILL get even if you blackfaced.

Your answer would probably just disappoint them. 

I'll be honest Tedd, I don't think you're coming away from this party with many happy memories. I hope the food is good.

[TuffLuff]

15 minutes ago, Norman said:

I think your take on the definition and this scenario does more damage on the racism subject than anything. Just my opinion.

I’ve said I don’t think Griezmann is a racist, hes apologised and we should move on. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be held to account because blacking up has a lot of connotations towards racism for over 100 years which should be considered. I’m short, someone doesn’t have to be racist to commit a racist act. I’m really not sure how that’s damaging...

 

[Norman]

1 minute ago, TuffLuff said:

I’ve said I don’t think Griezmann is a racist, hes apologised and we should move on. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be held to account because blacking up has a lot of connotations towards racism for over 100 years which should be considered. I’m short, someone doesn’t have to be racist to commit a racist act. I’m really not sure how that’s damaging...

 

And we'll leave it there. Circles.

[Stive Pesley]

37 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

OK well I'm going to look back through here and see how many threads have been started every time a black rapper has used the word nigger in one of their songs, I assume there will be lots...

Yawn - not even going to go there. Griezmann has showed his ignorance. Don't show yours