Day Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 18 minutes ago, Highgate said: Strange to argue that Guardiola isn't a truly great manager because he's never managed an average side. Do we have similar reservations for great players? Messi isn't really the greatest player in the world because he's never done it for Stoke or Burnley ? Surely what they do with the teams they have at their disposal is what matters. Incidentally Pep did do a very good job with Barca B, in the Spanish third tier. Interestingly enough whilst trying to arm myself with a few quotes, I came across some from Alex Ferguson said: “It’s interesting to me that we hear so much about two players these days: Ronaldo and Messi,” Ferguson said in an impromptu appearance at the K Club in Kildare, scene of the upcoming Irish Open. “Now don’t get me wrong, Messi is a fantastic player, it’s like he’s wearing slippers when he controls the ball. But here, for me, is the difference. Messi is a Barcelona player. “But Ronaldo could play for Stockport County and score a hat-trick. He has everything. He can shoot with both feet, head the ball, he’s as brave as a lion, and here’s something else people overlook. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/cristiano-ronaldo-is-better-than-lionel-messi-because-he-exhausts-himself-in-being-the-best-says-sir-a7035661.html There may or may not have been red wine consumed before this but those reservations have always been there, both Ronaldo and Messi's international careers have been used in the media for years arguing the cases for each other, if they were true greats they would drag them through tournaments blah blah... Can't say I sign off on that one, but reservations are out there. Another pipe is that a top top player gets to 30, out of contract, pulls a random team out a hat and goes to play for a season for free. Whilst it would never happen in a million years, can't tell me you wouldn't like to see it happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Man City vs Spurs this weekend. Spurs took four points off City last season. Could they put an end to their current winning run? Crazy to think that if Spurs drop 9 more points they won’t be able to reach last season’s overall points tally. Goes to show how moving away from WHL has prevented them from progress this season. Probably harsh to suggest they’ve gone backwards, but they’ve not progressed whereas a couple of their rivals have. I reckon it will be close but another victory for Pep’s side. 2-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, David said: Interestingly enough whilst trying to arm myself with a few quotes, I came across some from Alex Ferguson said: “It’s interesting to me that we hear so much about two players these days: Ronaldo and Messi,” Ferguson said in an impromptu appearance at the K Club in Kildare, scene of the upcoming Irish Open. “Now don’t get me wrong, Messi is a fantastic player, it’s like he’s wearing slippers when he controls the ball. But here, for me, is the difference. Messi is a Barcelona player. “But Ronaldo could play for Stockport County and score a hat-trick. He has everything. He can shoot with both feet, head the ball, he’s as brave as a lion, and here’s something else people overlook. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/cristiano-ronaldo-is-better-than-lionel-messi-because-he-exhausts-himself-in-being-the-best-says-sir-a7035661.html There may or may not have been red wine consumed before this but those reservations have always been there, both Ronaldo and Messi's international careers have been used in the media for years arguing the cases for each other, if they were true greats they would drag them through tournaments blah blah... Can't say I sign off on that one, but reservations are out there. Another pipe is that a top top player gets to 30, out of contract, pulls a random team out a hat and goes to play for a season for free. Whilst it would never happen in a million years, can't tell me you wouldn't like to see it happen! Can't help but think that Ferguson might be slightly biased towards his own former player. But his assessment of Ronaldo's attributes are accurate. Ronaldo does have some abilities that Messi doesn't. He is much better in the air and he is physically stronger. It's also to his lasting credit that he works so hard at his game. But the reverse is also true, Messi sees a pass earlier and plays it more accurately generally speaking. He's also a better dribbler. I think Messi would tear it up for Stockport to be honest, although maybe Ronaldo would be better suited to lower league football in England than Messi, even if he would spend an awful lot of time whinging at the refs. Can't deny I'd like to see them both have to try it for a while. Has any player really dragged their nation to a tournament win bar Maradona in 1986? And even he had a quiet final...bar one good pass to Burrachaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 6 hours ago, ramsbottom said: The current Cit-eh side have played 17 league games together, so you can hardly compare them to past great teams. Comparing them so soon to a side that went a whole season without loosing a game, one that won the league at a canter despite huge financial advantage, and one that dominated the domestic game for a decade is a little narrow minded and suits your point of view. If this team progresses and wins trophies this season and the next, I think it's wholly fair to compare them to those other teams. How do you know they were celebrating winning the league already on Sunday night??? I haven't read any report of the incident that highlights Raheem Stirling doing a samba dance outside the United dressing room, in his boxers, singing "CHAMPI-OOO-NEES", whilst smoking a big cigar... Well exactly they have played 17 league games together and as yet, have won nothing. In your words, they can't be compared to great teams, so how am I embarrassing myself by not yet acknowledging their greatness? I think I have been pretty consistent over recent weeks in saying that the winning run they are on is fantastic but it's important not to get carried away in what is a long season. Well City have won at Old Trafford in five of the last seven league meetings, including a 6-1 hammering in 2011. Their celebrations were not symbolic of getting one over their rivals. Winning at OT is nothing new for them. It was symbolic of having won a 'title decider'. How can you not see that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 6 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: It doesn’t matter how much money you throw at it, it takes a genius to direct the way City are playing right now. We saw it before with Barcelona playing the greatest brand of football the world has ever seen, one which will be remembered in years to come. And now Pep is putting in the pieces for City to accomplish something similar. They’ve already broken the all-time winning streak, a record start to the season and goals scored. They’re on course for a record points tally too, all while playing an extremely enjoyable brand of football. Of course fans and pundits alike are going to crow over them. They deserve it right now. Things could soon change, but you can’t compare this current side to one which is viewed upon over a 5-year period. Right now though, the level in which City are playing I certainly haven’t seen a better PL side. City’s best performances this season IMO have been better than the Arsenal’s invincibles or the United treble sides’ best performances. Of course it matters. Why else did Pep spend £200m+ in the previous transfer window and another £170 million the previous season? He obviously needed to spend money to achieve his aims. Personally I think Pellegrini's City, in their title winning season at least, were more devastating and entertaining to watch. So I don't think Pep is the only coach/manager who could get City playing how they are currently. How is it possible to say Barcelona played the greatest brand of football ever seen? It's something entirely subjective and something that can't be proven one way or another. City have broken some records. We've acknowledged that. They play football that is enjoyable for you. We've acknowledged that. So what exactly is up for debate here? Most of what you say is subjective and hyperbolic in the extreme - 'it takes a genius', 'I haven't seen a better side' etc. - so there isn't much to discuss until Saturday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 7 hours ago, Highgate said: I think the Premier League was generally of a lower standard then, than it is now., and less financially dominant when compared to the other leagues Looking across Europe today, the top 6 in the Premier League look really strong, whereas in the early 2000s, Arsenal (even their 'invincible' team) managed nothing at all in Europe. For me, it would take a higher quality team to go unbeaten in the 2017-2018 league than it did the 2003-2004 season. It's very difficult to compare teams from different eras, but right at this moment, I really think Man City look like the real deal. I agree the financial landscape of the PL was very different back then and I agree that Arsenal of the early 2000s underachieved in Europe. But if we are using Europe as a barometer, I think club performances on the European stage (1 CL winner each in the years preceding) would suggest standards in 2004 and 2017 are quite similar and proportionate to the level of investment in the league at those particular times. From 2004-09, we had two winners of the competition and finalists in every CL final during that period, so until we see similar performances from the current PL sides, we really don't know how strong they are. 5 teams in the last 16 seems impressive, but if they all go out before the business end of the competition, what can we truly read into it? But I totally agree that we are debating an almost impossible topic. After all, in 2003-04, Tottenham, Manchester City and Everton finished 14th, 16th and 17th respectively. The landscape of the English game is massively different now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Jourdan said: Of course it matters. Why else did Pep spend £200m+ in the previous transfer window and another £170 million the previous season? He obviously needed to spend money to achieve his aims. Personally I think Pellegrini's City, in their title winning season at least, were more devastating and entertaining to watch. So I don't think Pep is the only coach/manager who could get City playing how they are currently. How is it possible to say Barcelona played the greatest brand of football ever seen? It's something entirely subjective and something that can't be proven one way or another. City have broken some records. We've acknowledged that. They play football that is enjoyable for you. We've acknowledged that. So what exactly is up for debate here? Most of what you say is subjective and hyperbolic in the extreme - 'it takes a genius', 'I haven't seen a better side' etc. - so there isn't much to discuss until Saturday night. He needed to spend the money, you are right. But the point I was making is that it doesn’t matter how much you spend, it takes a genius to get your team playing like that and that demonstrates the coaching ability of Pep Guardiola. It’s your opinion that Pellegrini’s City side was more devastating. That’s fair. But you are in a minority, probably less than 1% who genuinely believe that. I mean, City now are averaging more points per game, scoring more, conceding less, creating more per game and dominating the ball more. But if you think Pellegrini’s side tops this, well that’s your opinion. Most of what I say is in the extreme? I think what your saying - regarding City not being anything special and Pellegrini’s side being more devastating and entertaining is way more extreme than anything I have said in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 41 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: He needed to spend the money, you are right. But the point I was making is that it doesn’t matter how much you spend, it takes a genius to get your team playing like that and that demonstrates the coaching ability of Pep Guardiola. It’s your opinion that Pellegrini’s City side was more devastating. That’s fair. But you are in a minority, probably less than 1% who genuinely believe that. I mean, City now are averaging more points per game, scoring more, conceding less, creating more per game and dominating the ball more. But if you think Pellegrini’s side tops this, well that’s your opinion. Most of what I say is in the extreme? I think what your saying - regarding City not being anything special and Pellegrini’s side being more devastating and entertaining is way more extreme than anything I have said in this thread. My suggestion was that they were more devastating and entertaining, not that they were more effective. Anyway, the statistics don't tell you everything. At the same stage in Pellegrini's title winning season, City had scored 51 goals in 17 games, just one fewer than this current City side, which alone suggests I'm wrong to say they were more devastating. But when you consider that Pellegrini's City had scored 4 v United, 6 v Arsenal, 6 v Spurs up to that comparable point in time and later in the season, they played Spurs and Man Utd away and won 1-5 and 0-3 respectively and ended up with 102 goals to their name at season's end, to say they were more devastating and entertaining is not an extreme view at all. They were actually destroying the top teams and they were hardly ever in a dull game. City haven't really taken apart a top team under Guardiola to the extent that Pellegrini did, or even Mancini did - think back to 6-1 and 5-1 to City at Old Trafford and White Hart Lane in 2011-12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Jourdan said: My suggestion was that they were more devastating and entertaining, not that they were more effective. Anyway, the statistics don't tell you everything. At the same stage in Pellegrini's title winning season, City had scored 51 goals in 17 games, just one fewer than this current City side, which alone suggests I'm wrong to say they were more devastating. But when you consider that Pellegrini's City had scored 4 v United, 6 v Arsenal, 6 v Spurs up to that comparable point in time and later in the season, they played Spurs and Man Utd away and won 1-5 and 0-3 respectively and ended up with 102 goals to their name at season's end, to say they were more devastating and entertaining is not an extreme view at all. They were actually destroying the top teams and they were hardly ever in a dull game. City haven't really taken apart a top team under Guardiola to the extent that Pellegrini did, or even Mancini did - think back to 6-1 and 5-1 to City at Old Trafford and White Hart Lane in 2011-12. But wasn’t that the season which Moyes was in charge of United and they were about 7th in the table, and Villa Boas was in charge of Spurs when they were also underperforming? That season Chelsea did the double over City, while Pellegrini’s side also lost to the likes of Cardiff City and Aston Villa. And doesn’t the 5-0 win over Liverpool count for City this season? Or a 4-2 win in Naples? Winning at United and Chelsea, 2nd and 3rd? Just to be comparable, City under Pellegrini lost at Liverpool and Chelsea (2nd and 3rd) in their title winning season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malagaram Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 All White,socks,shirt and shorts,as if we will surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 is Ronaldo trying to imitate his own statue now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 On 11/12/2017 at 00:40, MuespachRam said: Yep..that burnout is looking pretty significant now...not sure they will win another game.. Never knew it was the end of the season already. Bayern(who were better than this Man City team) especially in Pep's first two seasons there, were brilliant in the first half of the season but come the end of each season, they struggled. This was because his style was so demanding on the players. Let's see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, McLovin said: Never knew it was the end of the season already. Bayern(who were better than this Man City team) especially in Pep's first two seasons there, were brilliant in the first half of the season but come the end of each season, they struggled. This was because his style was so demanding on the players. Let's see what happens If you can rotate it’s fine, but I see where you are coming from. They put in some miles on the clock each game and outwork their opponents. De Bruyne and David Silva are absoloutely key to them, and both seem to be playing every game. The likes of Aguero, Sane, Fernandinho, the fullbacks, CBs and GK can be rotated with Gabriel Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Yaya Toure, Danilo, Mangala and Bravo but the one area I see no direct backup is for Silva and De Bruyne. An injury to either or burnout as you say could cause a bit of a problem for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 58 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: If you can rotate it’s fine, but I see where you are coming from. They put in some miles on the clock each game and outwork their opponents. De Bruyne and David Silva are absoloutely key to them, and both seem to be playing every game. The likes of Aguero, Sane, Fernandinho, the fullbacks, CBs and GK can be rotated with Gabriel Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Yaya Toure, Danilo, Mangala and Bravo but the one area I see no direct backup is for Silva and De Bruyne. An injury to either or burnout as you say could cause a bit of a problem for them. City will win the league, I've no doubt about that but I don't think it will be by a huge gap in the end. For all the stars in the Man City squad, Pep has been reluctant to rotate too much which I think is what might cost them especially in the champions league. I think burnout will be a problem so signings might be needed in January. I find it interesting how many Bielsa followers (Guardiola, Simeone, Sampaoli at Sevilla last season and Pochettino) all play a high intensity, demanding game and all of their teams tend to struggle physically come the end of the season. Maybe it's because their styles are a bit too intense for their players and they don't rotate as much as they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 2 hours ago, McLovin said: Never knew it was the end of the season already. Bayern(who were better than this Man City team) especially in Pep's first two seasons there, were brilliant in the first half of the season but come the end of each season, they struggled. This was because his style was so demanding on the players. Let's see what happens Shall we say 100 of your English pounds then...? You can have any of the other top flight teams and I will have Manchester City to win it.... it’s over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 13 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: Shall we say 100 of your English pounds then...? You can have any of the other top flight teams and I will have Manchester City to win it.... it’s over. Read my original post again. I said at the time that Man City will probably win it and I'm even sure of that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 On 14/12/2017 at 16:00, David said: Interestingly enough whilst trying to arm myself with a few quotes, I came across some from Alex Ferguson said: “It’s interesting to me that we hear so much about two players these days: Ronaldo and Messi,” Ferguson said in an impromptu appearance at the K Club in Kildare, scene of the upcoming Irish Open. “Now don’t get me wrong, Messi is a fantastic player, it’s like he’s wearing slippers when he controls the ball. But here, for me, is the difference. Messi is a Barcelona player. “But Ronaldo could play for Stockport County and score a hat-trick. He has everything. He can shoot with both feet, head the ball, he’s as brave as a lion, and here’s something else people overlook. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/cristiano-ronaldo-is-better-than-lionel-messi-because-he-exhausts-himself-in-being-the-best-says-sir-a7035661.html There may or may not have been red wine consumed before this but those reservations have always been there, both Ronaldo and Messi's international careers have been used in the media for years arguing the cases for each other, if they were true greats they would drag them through tournaments blah blah... Can't say I sign off on that one, but reservations are out there. Another pipe is that a top top player gets to 30, out of contract, pulls a random team out a hat and goes to play for a season for free. Whilst it would never happen in a million years, can't tell me you wouldn't like to see it happen! Ferguson was bound to back Ronaldo as he used to manage him and they're still very close. Imagine the backlash if Ferguson said Messi was better, it would ruin his relationship with Ronaldo forever. On the quote itself, Ronaldo relies on service whereas Messi can do things all by himself. Most pro players not associated with Messi or Ronaldo say it isn't even close- that Messi is better by miles. Chiellini said that you can mark Ronaldo but against Messi you simply have the pray. Diego Simeone said he used to have nightmares over facing Messi beforehand and said he feared Messi over the whole of the BBC(Bale, Benzema and Ronaldo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Ronaldo is a fantastic player but it's simply a travesty that him and Messi have the same amount of balon d'ors. It will give the illusion to future generations that they were on the same level when in reality, that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 30 minutes ago, McLovin said: Read my original post again. I said at the time that Man City will probably win it and I'm even sure of that now. But what if they tire like the mighty Bayern did...and don’t forget they were much better than this city team....pah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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