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The boring Man City discussion

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12 minutes ago, BurtonRam7 said:

Absolute rubbish. Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

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4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

Ferguson's final title-winning season was with a pretty crap squad, full of ageing players (Paul Scholes was starting games).

Also, if almost-relegated Leicester City (who had Robert Huth and Wes Morgan at CB) can get 81 points, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that that City team could have got 90.

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5 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

Mancini managed it with a worse squad, arguably. And pep recruited several into it.

I'm not saying he should have walked it but he certainly could have done better. Your comment on Heynckes is telling. Someone could have won with that side but Guardiola demands a certain style of football. He has to coach his way. He can't adapt well.

I'm all for the spectacle so I understand the demand of a certain style but could another manager have done better? Absolutely. Mounted a credible title challenge? Definitely. But as you say, he's a great coach. The greatest managers I would judge on their ability to win despite all odds. Guardiola is not that man. 

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10 minutes ago, Alex W said:

Mancini managed it with a worse squad, arguably. And pep recruited several into it.

I'm not saying he should have walked it but he certainly could have done better. Your comment on Heynckes is telling. Someone could have won with that side but Guardiola demands a certain style of football. He has to coach his way. He can't adapt well.

I'm all for the spectacle so I understand the demand of a certain style but could another manager have done better? Absolutely. Mounted a credible title challenge? Definitely. But as you say, he's a great coach. The greatest managers I would judge on their ability to win despite all odds. Guardiola is not that man. 

City had a better squad, in terms of players in their prime, under Mancini.

Chelsea won the league with 93 points. It would have been an impossible task to beat that with that squad.

It's not a question of Guardiola adapting. Teams don't hire him to adapt, they hire him to implement his style.

If City just wanted a winner, why not hire Ancelotti, Mourinho or Blanc. They hired Pep for a reason, same as Bayern.

I judge the greatest managers on their ability to change football or leave a lasting inpression. I think Mourinho is definitely up there too. He practically invented the way teams, in England especially, defend these days with the deep, compact block. No side, at least in my lifetime, did it now it's extremely common.

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4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same? No they wouldn't.

They didn't hire him because if his ability to get results. There are numerous good managers out there who given £500m to spend could provide you a winning side.

They hired Pep Guardiola for his coaching ability. He provides a style of football which others like Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pellegrini, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger couldn't.

Pep is a genius. To be able to coach your team to playing that brand of football is genius. There is no denying that.

Bayern players have called him the greatest coach they've ever had. They won everything under Jupp Heynckes, dominating everyone in one particular season and winning the treble. But in terms of coaching the side, they say Pep was the best as he brought ideas they had never seen before and a style of beautiful football never associated with Bayern.

I don't put Pep up there for his ability to win trophies. He has plenty of competition in that regard. I put him up there for his ability to coach the team and provide breathtaking football. SAF, Wenger, Mourinho all got nowhere near him in that regard.

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

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2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

Barcelona destroyed both Arsenal and United. Not in terms of the result, but utter domination with the ball and in terms of pace and movement.

SAF said Barcelona were the greatest team he ever faced. Do you think he would have said the same had they played defensive percentage football like a Sam Allardyce team? 

Pep coached that team to play that way. He had a vision, and he implemented it like no other.

 

Edited by Bris Vegas

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On 23/08/2017 at 03:51, Highgate said:

Tough to call the Premier League winners this year. I'm going to predict City (Manchester not Stoke), Chelsea and Man.Utd being their biggest challengers i think. Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs to battle it out for 4th....with Everton having an outside chance. Should be an exciting year! 

I assumed you meant Leicester.:ph34r:

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7 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

City had a better squad, in terms of players in their prime, under Mancini.

Chelsea won the league with 93 points. It would have been an impossible task to beat that with that squad.

It's not a question of Guardiola adapting. Teams don't hire him to adapt, they hire him to implement his style.

If City just wanted a winner, why not hire Ancelotti, Mourinho or Blanc. They hired Pep for a reason, same as Bayern.

I judge the greatest managers on their ability to change football or leave a lasting inpression. I think Mourinho is definitely up there too. He practically invented the way teams, in England especially, defend these days with the deep, compact block. No side, at least in my lifetime, did it now it's extremely common.

You say this with the benefit of hindsight though.

No-one expected Chelsea to be so strong. Chelsea didn't start on 93 points. They started on zero like everyone else. It was only through excellent management, which included doing the double over City, that they got there. Pre-season, it was all about Pep v Jose. No-one else was in the discussion. It even got to the point where some pundits were labelling United v City in September as a title decider.

Chelsea weren't title favourites. Conte had done an excellent job at Juventus and an excellent job with Italy at the Euros and some thought he could come in and go about his business without too much fanfare, coach effectively, man manage effectively, and all in all, be a great fit for Chelsea. But there weren't too many who held that opinion. Especially not early doors after losing to Arsenal and Liverpool.

What I like about Conte is that he wasn't afraid to change something and he was humble enough to go back to the drawing board, adapt and he brought in the 3-4-3 system, a system which was not widely used in English football at the time. Now every Sam and Rob with a coaching badge swears by 3 at the back. After that switch, Chelsea never looked back. Same thing with Burnley the other week. Terrible result. He produced a fighting response from his players and they win against Spurs.

I have not seen Pep do the same and I get the sense that he won't. There is this sense of 'Let Pep do what he wants, spend how much he wants, take as much time as he wants, because...Barcelona.' But when do you stop giving Pep - the supposed best manager in the game - the benefit of the doubt? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years?

In my lifetime, Wenger's Arsenal of the early 2000s were just as beautiful to watch as any side Guardiola has produced. If not more so. But they were figured out. They were passed by. Wenger stuck to his principles, refused to change, and Arsenal haven't won the title since 2004.

Personally, I think Pep's reputation is working against him, and he has fallen into the same trap as Wenger. Everyone is so invested in his 'genius' and his principles that he is almost infallible to some. To me, a genius doesn't stand still. A genius is always looking how to improve something. A genius doesn't dine out on former glories. A genius would understand he is working with a different group of players, for a different club with a different infrastructure, in a different league with different demands and adjust accordingly.

When people call Pep the best manager in the game, labelling him a visionary, a pioneer, a genius, when people talk about him in otherworldly tones, you would think that in such a job, this is where his ability to motivate, coach and manage players would shine through and make the difference. In the big games. In the tactical battles. But yet City dropped 20 points versus top 6 sides last season. Eight teams went to the Etihad and picked up at least a draw. So is he really a difference maker?

Pep has the luxury of spending £200 million in one window and overhauling a squad through choice. The truth is he is making an easy job look difficult.

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I can't say i've studied PG very closely therefore someone can pick holes in my statement, but i think he did a good job at bayern. He freshened them up, brought in younger players, and changed them into something of his own. Ancelotti seems to be continuing that rebuild bringing in good young players like Sule and Tolisso.

PG seems to be doing something similar at city. Dumping joe hart appeared premature and a possible error. But jesus and sane made city quicker, more mobile, and easy on the eye. £90m on two full backs appears ridiculous, but the market has gone crazy since United spent £80m on pogba. Even during the course on one window, prices have escalated by 25%. city are a factor in the escalating prices but so are man utd, spurs, liverpool, psg, barcelona, monaco, chelsea, etc etc.

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12 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

Quite right...the Invincibles side that Wenger built was absolutely incredible.... and Ferguson built teams time and time again that were unbelievable. 

Pep has done well so far but is miles behind Ferguson still. Miles behind 

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6 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Quite right...the Invincibles side that Wenger built was absolutely incredible.... and Ferguson built teams time and time again that were unbelievable. 

Pep has done well so far but is miles behind Ferguson still. Miles behind 

Pep has only been in England 1 year... In terms of CL successes, he won just as many in 4 years at Barca as SAF did in 25 years at Utd.

But I don't build up his genius in terms of title success. There are numerous managers who have won honours, and numerous managers who have been forgotten already by the general footballing world.

Pep has already stamped his mark on the game. He is a coaching genius, having created the greatest club side the world had ever seen.

At City he has been given the opportunity to build his own side, and do something similar. I have 100% faith he will achieve his goal.

SAF and Wenger both created great sides who played attractive football, but neither shook the world and created a blueprint quite like Pep at Barcelona.

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On 8/24/2017 at 16:04, Bris Vegas said:

Any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same? No they wouldn't.

They didn't hire him because if his ability to get results. There are numerous good managers out there who given £500m to spend could provide you a winning side.

They hired Pep Guardiola for his coaching ability. He provides a style of football which others like Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pellegrini, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger couldn't.

Pep is a genius. To be able to coach your team to playing that brand of football is genius. There is no denying that.

Bayern players have called him the greatest coach they've ever had. They won everything under Jupp Heynckes, dominating everyone in one particular season and winning the treble. But in terms of coaching the side, they say Pep was the best as he brought ideas they had never seen before and a style of beautiful football never associated with Bayern.

I don't put Pep up there for his ability to win trophies. He has plenty of competition in that regard. I put him up there for his ability to coach the team and provide breathtaking football. SAF, Wenger, Mourinho all got nowhere near him in that regard.

Mourinho maybe not, but Fergie & Wenger have produced some of the best club sides of the past half a century, and they won the trophies to go with it.  Derby played the best football of the 13/14 season, but what did we win???  F*** all!!!

If Pep is such a genius, how come his side managed to capitulate against Monaco last season?  And his Bayern side against Atletico the season before?  Not to mention big defeats by Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester(!!!!) & Everton?  You can get your sides to play pretty triangles with inverted wingbacks all season long, but if you come away at the end of it all with nothing to show for it, how great a manager can you be?  Don't get me wrong, he's outstanding at what he does, but if he doesn't win the big trophies this season, he'll be gone...

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3 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

Mourinho maybe not, but Fergie & Wenger have produced some of the best club sides of the past half a century, and they won the trophies to go with it.  Derby played the best football of the 13/14 season, but what did we win???  F*** all!!!

If Pep is such a genius, how come his side managed to capitulate against Monaco last season?  And his Bayern side against Atletico the season before?  Not to mention big defeats by Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester(!!!!) & Everton?  You can get your sides to play pretty triangles with inverted wingbacks all season long, but if you come away at the end of it all with nothing to show for it, how great a manager can you be?  Don't get me wrong, he's outstanding at what he does, but if he doesn't win the big trophies this season, he'll be gone...

He'll be gone? Like I mentioned previously, he's in season two of the biggest turnover of players in Europe.

No other side will make such vast changes because they simply don't have to.

Pep walked into a squad with an average age of 29! The oldest in the CL and PL last season. 

He has been tasked with creating a dynasty. City won't be stupid enough to sack him if he doesn't win a trophy this season.

He will no doubt have expectations placed on him, but City are looking at the long-term, not season-by-season.

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10 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

He'll be gone? Like I mentioned previously, he's in season two of the biggest turnover of players in Europe.

No other side will make such vast changes because they simply don't have to.

Pep walked into a squad with an average age of 29! The oldest in the CL and PL last season. 

He has been tasked with creating a dynasty. City won't be stupid enough to sack him if he doesn't win a trophy this season.

He will no doubt have expectations placed on him, but City are looking at the long-term, not season-by-season.

In the last 2 seasons the average age of the players he has offloaded is 25.7, the average age of players he acquired 23.4 and all on a shoestring budget of £300m...

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4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

He'll be gone? Like I mentioned previously, he's in season two of the biggest turnover of players in Europe.

No other side will make such vast changes because they simply don't have to.

Pep walked into a squad with an average age of 29! The oldest in the CL and PL last season. 

He has been tasked with creating a dynasty. City won't be stupid enough to sack him if he doesn't win a trophy this season.

He will no doubt have expectations placed on him, but City are looking at the long-term, not season-by-season.

Except West Brom, Watford and Stoke to name a few...

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