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Jourdan

The boring Man City discussion

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1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

Pep has been tasked with the largest squad turnover in PL history. He's been tasked with getting rid of 2/3 of the squad and replacing it.

Oh do behave.

If he was as good as we are told he would not have to get rid of that many, he would actually coach them to play how he wants. (He has sold or loaned out 8 players under the age of 24)

All we will find out this year is whether he has been able to buy the league or not.

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9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Oh do behave.

If he was as good as we are told he would not have to get rid of that many, he would actually coach them to play how he wants. (He has sold or loaned out 8 players under the age of 24)

All we will find out this year is whether he has been able to buy the league or not.

Rubbish.

You can't coach players who don't have any potential. The majority of City's squad didn't, as they were past their prime age wise.

And coaching players to how you want them when that isn't their game is setting yourself up for failure.

Didn't we go over this with Nigel Pearson?

Pep, to get his team functioning how he wants, has to have the right players to do so. That's just logic.

You can't just coach it into players. Football doesn't work like that. Pep isn't a miracle worker, he can't just coach a 33-year-old Zabaleta to become this dynamo fullback who runs up and down the wing all day. He can't coach 31-year-old head-down winger in Jesus Navas to suddenly become this intricate inside forward capable of cutting on his left foot like Arjen Robben.

Pep is in the midst of transforming City and creating a team never seen before in the PL. Haters are going to hate...

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31 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Rubbish.

You can't coach players who don't have any potential. The majority of City's squad didn't, as they were past their prime age wise.

And coaching players to how you want them when that isn't their game is setting yourself up for failure.

Didn't we go over this with Nigel Pearson?

Pep, to get his team functioning how he wants, has to have the right players to do so. That's just logic.

You can't just coach it into players. Football doesn't work like that. Pep isn't a miracle worker, he can't just coach a 33-year-old Zabaleta to become this dynamo fullback who runs up and down the wing all day. He can't coach 31-year-old head-down winger in Jesus Navas to suddenly become this intricate inside forward capable of cutting on his left foot like Arjen Robben.

Pep is in the midst of transforming City and creating a team never seen before in the PL. Haters are going to hate...

He's not a brillian coach then, he's just someone who buys the most expensive players to suit his system. 

If he was as clever as I am told he would see how his squad plays and pick a system to suit them rather than sticking to his system and then needing to spend  £200m when the obvious result occurs.

I don't hate the guy, why would I?

I certainly hope he does create the sort of team never seen before when he is spending over £100m on full backs.

The only person who seems to have any real emotion for him is you, hence why you look for excuses to defend everything he does.

Edited by G STAR RAM

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2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

He's not a brillian coach then, he's just someone who buys the most expensive players to suit his system. 

If he was as clever as I am told he would see how his squad plays and pick a system to suit them rather than sticking to his system and then needing to spend  £200m when the obvious result occurs.

I don't hate the guy, why would I?

I certainly hope he does create the sort of team never seen before when he is spending over £100m on full backs.

The only person who seems to have any real emotion for him is you, hence why you look for excuses to defend everything he does.

He is a brilliant coach. He created the greatest club side ever, playing the best football.

Bayern players said he was the greatest coach they ever had, while his stint in Germany played a key role in Germany winning the World Cup in 2014.

You clearly don't understand football works if you think he could turn Sagna into a 27-year-old Dani Alves, Wilfried Bony into Lewandowski and Jesus Navas into Arjen Robben with a bit of coaching.

There hasn't been a manager past or present who hasn't had to spend money to create the team he wants.

And why would he see how his squad plays and pick a system to suit? City didn't hire him to play transitional football with a bunch of players in their 30s.

Like Bayern, they hired him because he can get create a team playing a brand of football which is beautiful to watch and nigh on impossible to create for most managers.

You think spending money could just create the best team? Are you really that naive? You can spend as much as you want, it takes a very special manager to piece it all together and to implement it in a beautiful style.

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13 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

He is a brilliant coach. He created the greatest club side ever, playing the best football.

Bayern players said he was the greatest coach they ever had, while his stint in Germany played a key role in Germany winning the World Cup in 2014.

You clearly don't understand football works if you think he could turn Sagna into a 27-year-old Dani Alves, Wilfried Bony into Lewandowski and Jesus Navas into Arjen Robben with a bit of coaching.

There hasn't been a manager past or present who hasn't had to spend money to create the team he wants.

And why would he see how his squad plays and pick a system to suit? City didn't hire him to play transitional football with a bunch of players in their 30s.

Like Bayern, they hired him because he can get create a team playing a brand of football which is beautiful to watch and nigh on impossible to create for most managers.

You think spending money could just create the best team? Are you really that naive? You can spend as much as you want, it takes a very special manager to piece it all together and to implement it in a beautiful style.

Yes, but Nigel Pearson :ph34r:

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12 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

He is a brilliant coach. He created the greatest club side ever, playing the best football.

Bayern players said he was the greatest coach they ever had, while his stint in Germany played a key role in Germany winning the World Cup in 2014.

You clearly don't understand football works if you think he could turn Sagna into a 27-year-old Dani Alves, Wilfried Bony into Lewandowski and Jesus Navas into Arjen Robben with a bit of coaching.

There hasn't been a manager past or present who hasn't had to spend money to create the team he wants.

And why would he see how his squad plays and pick a system to suit? City didn't hire him to play transitional football with a bunch of players in their 30s.

Like Bayern, they hired him because he can get create a team playing a brand of football which is beautiful to watch and nigh on impossible to create for most managers.

You think spending money could just create the best team? Are you really that naive? You can spend as much as you want, it takes a very special manager to piece it all together and to implement it in a beautiful style.

Well there's a surprise,  someone else that disagrees with you so clearly doesn't understand football...

Not much more to say really you will continue to think the sun shines out of his behind no matter what whereas a lot will look at anything he achieves from now and realise the reality is that any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same with such ridiculous amounts of money spent.

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7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well there's a surprise,  someone else that disagrees with you so clearly doesn't understand football...

Not much more to say really you will continue to think the sun shines out of his behind no matter what whereas a lot will look at anything he achieves from now and realise the reality is that any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same with such ridiculous amounts of money spent.

Any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same? No they wouldn't.

They didn't hire him because if his ability to get results. There are numerous good managers out there who given £500m to spend could provide you a winning side.

They hired Pep Guardiola for his coaching ability. He provides a style of football which others like Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pellegrini, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger couldn't.

Pep is a genius. To be able to coach your team to playing that brand of football is genius. There is no denying that.

Bayern players have called him the greatest coach they've ever had. They won everything under Jupp Heynckes, dominating everyone in one particular season and winning the treble. But in terms of coaching the side, they say Pep was the best as he brought ideas they had never seen before and a style of beautiful football never associated with Bayern.

I don't put Pep up there for his ability to win trophies. He has plenty of competition in that regard. I put him up there for his ability to coach the team and provide breathtaking football. SAF, Wenger, Mourinho all got nowhere near him in that regard.

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On 23/08/2017 at 01:02, Bris Vegas said:

I don't think they will coast to the title. I think they will dominate the majority of their games though.

The only thing that will stop them from winning the title is themselves via a lack of prolificacy or another team going on near record form like Chelsea last term.

You suggest I have already made excuses for Pep. I haven't made any excuses for him in regards to his time so far.

What is there to make excuses about? His failure to win the title last season? Nobody would have won the title with thay squad. Nobody.

 

Absolute rubbish. Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

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12 minutes ago, BurtonRam7 said:

Absolute rubbish. Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

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4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

Ferguson's final title-winning season was with a pretty crap squad, full of ageing players (Paul Scholes was starting games).

Also, if almost-relegated Leicester City (who had Robert Huth and Wes Morgan at CB) can get 81 points, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that that City team could have got 90.

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5 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

So your saying somebody could have achieved 90 plus points with that squad? City with those players in their prime only managed 86. They finished on 66 points the season before.

One year older for their ageing players and you think they could have claimed 90+ points? What dreamland are you living in?

Mancini managed it with a worse squad, arguably. And pep recruited several into it.

I'm not saying he should have walked it but he certainly could have done better. Your comment on Heynckes is telling. Someone could have won with that side but Guardiola demands a certain style of football. He has to coach his way. He can't adapt well.

I'm all for the spectacle so I understand the demand of a certain style but could another manager have done better? Absolutely. Mounted a credible title challenge? Definitely. But as you say, he's a great coach. The greatest managers I would judge on their ability to win despite all odds. Guardiola is not that man. 

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10 minutes ago, Alex W said:

Mancini managed it with a worse squad, arguably. And pep recruited several into it.

I'm not saying he should have walked it but he certainly could have done better. Your comment on Heynckes is telling. Someone could have won with that side but Guardiola demands a certain style of football. He has to coach his way. He can't adapt well.

I'm all for the spectacle so I understand the demand of a certain style but could another manager have done better? Absolutely. Mounted a credible title challenge? Definitely. But as you say, he's a great coach. The greatest managers I would judge on their ability to win despite all odds. Guardiola is not that man. 

City had a better squad, in terms of players in their prime, under Mancini.

Chelsea won the league with 93 points. It would have been an impossible task to beat that with that squad.

It's not a question of Guardiola adapting. Teams don't hire him to adapt, they hire him to implement his style.

If City just wanted a winner, why not hire Ancelotti, Mourinho or Blanc. They hired Pep for a reason, same as Bayern.

I judge the greatest managers on their ability to change football or leave a lasting inpression. I think Mourinho is definitely up there too. He practically invented the way teams, in England especially, defend these days with the deep, compact block. No side, at least in my lifetime, did it now it's extremely common.

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4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same? No they wouldn't.

They didn't hire him because if his ability to get results. There are numerous good managers out there who given £500m to spend could provide you a winning side.

They hired Pep Guardiola for his coaching ability. He provides a style of football which others like Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pellegrini, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger couldn't.

Pep is a genius. To be able to coach your team to playing that brand of football is genius. There is no denying that.

Bayern players have called him the greatest coach they've ever had. They won everything under Jupp Heynckes, dominating everyone in one particular season and winning the treble. But in terms of coaching the side, they say Pep was the best as he brought ideas they had never seen before and a style of beautiful football never associated with Bayern.

I don't put Pep up there for his ability to win trophies. He has plenty of competition in that regard. I put him up there for his ability to coach the team and provide breathtaking football. SAF, Wenger, Mourinho all got nowhere near him in that regard.

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

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2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

Barcelona destroyed both Arsenal and United. Not in terms of the result, but utter domination with the ball and in terms of pace and movement.

SAF said Barcelona were the greatest team he ever faced. Do you think he would have said the same had they played defensive percentage football like a Sam Allardyce team? 

Pep coached that team to play that way. He had a vision, and he implemented it like no other.

 

Edited by Bris Vegas

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On 23/08/2017 at 03:51, Highgate said:

Tough to call the Premier League winners this year. I'm going to predict City (Manchester not Stoke), Chelsea and Man.Utd being their biggest challengers i think. Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs to battle it out for 4th....with Everton having an outside chance. Should be an exciting year! 

I assumed you meant Leicester.:ph34r:

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7 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

City had a better squad, in terms of players in their prime, under Mancini.

Chelsea won the league with 93 points. It would have been an impossible task to beat that with that squad.

It's not a question of Guardiola adapting. Teams don't hire him to adapt, they hire him to implement his style.

If City just wanted a winner, why not hire Ancelotti, Mourinho or Blanc. They hired Pep for a reason, same as Bayern.

I judge the greatest managers on their ability to change football or leave a lasting inpression. I think Mourinho is definitely up there too. He practically invented the way teams, in England especially, defend these days with the deep, compact block. No side, at least in my lifetime, did it now it's extremely common.

You say this with the benefit of hindsight though.

No-one expected Chelsea to be so strong. Chelsea didn't start on 93 points. They started on zero like everyone else. It was only through excellent management, which included doing the double over City, that they got there. Pre-season, it was all about Pep v Jose. No-one else was in the discussion. It even got to the point where some pundits were labelling United v City in September as a title decider.

Chelsea weren't title favourites. Conte had done an excellent job at Juventus and an excellent job with Italy at the Euros and some thought he could come in and go about his business without too much fanfare, coach effectively, man manage effectively, and all in all, be a great fit for Chelsea. But there weren't too many who held that opinion. Especially not early doors after losing to Arsenal and Liverpool.

What I like about Conte is that he wasn't afraid to change something and he was humble enough to go back to the drawing board, adapt and he brought in the 3-4-3 system, a system which was not widely used in English football at the time. Now every Sam and Rob with a coaching badge swears by 3 at the back. After that switch, Chelsea never looked back. Same thing with Burnley the other week. Terrible result. He produced a fighting response from his players and they win against Spurs.

I have not seen Pep do the same and I get the sense that he won't. There is this sense of 'Let Pep do what he wants, spend how much he wants, take as much time as he wants, because...Barcelona.' But when do you stop giving Pep - the supposed best manager in the game - the benefit of the doubt? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years?

In my lifetime, Wenger's Arsenal of the early 2000s were just as beautiful to watch as any side Guardiola has produced. If not more so. But they were figured out. They were passed by. Wenger stuck to his principles, refused to change, and Arsenal haven't won the title since 2004.

Personally, I think Pep's reputation is working against him, and he has fallen into the same trap as Wenger. Everyone is so invested in his 'genius' and his principles that he is almost infallible to some. To me, a genius doesn't stand still. A genius is always looking how to improve something. A genius doesn't dine out on former glories. A genius would understand he is working with a different group of players, for a different club with a different infrastructure, in a different league with different demands and adjust accordingly.

When people call Pep the best manager in the game, labelling him a visionary, a pioneer, a genius, when people talk about him in otherworldly tones, you would think that in such a job, this is where his ability to motivate, coach and manage players would shine through and make the difference. In the big games. In the tactical battles. But yet City dropped 20 points versus top 6 sides last season. Eight teams went to the Etihad and picked up at least a draw. So is he really a difference maker?

Pep has the luxury of spending £200 million in one window and overhauling a squad through choice. The truth is he is making an easy job look difficult.

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I can't say i've studied PG very closely therefore someone can pick holes in my statement, but i think he did a good job at bayern. He freshened them up, brought in younger players, and changed them into something of his own. Ancelotti seems to be continuing that rebuild bringing in good young players like Sule and Tolisso.

PG seems to be doing something similar at city. Dumping joe hart appeared premature and a possible error. But jesus and sane made city quicker, more mobile, and easy on the eye. £90m on two full backs appears ridiculous, but the market has gone crazy since United spent £80m on pogba. Even during the course on one window, prices have escalated by 25%. city are a factor in the escalating prices but so are man utd, spurs, liverpool, psg, barcelona, monaco, chelsea, etc etc.

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12 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Breathtaking football that SAF and Wenger could get nowhere near? Really?

Maybe you did only just start watching football in the last 5 years. 

Quite right...the Invincibles side that Wenger built was absolutely incredible.... and Ferguson built teams time and time again that were unbelievable. 

Pep has done well so far but is miles behind Ferguson still. Miles behind 

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