The boring Man City discussion

[David]

23 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

They need more cover because they basically started from zero.

Against Liverpool only Otamendi (£30m), De Bruyne (£50m), David Silva (£24m), Fernandinho (£30m), Aguero, (£40m), Delph (£8m), Mangala (£40m) and Foden (youth) made the 18-man squad who were at City before Guardiola.

Zero???

Only???

Come on Bris ?

[Bris Vegas]

39 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

We will never agree.

Not sure how he will ever prove to be the best coach ever when all he ever has to work with the best players in the world who he buys for ridiculous sums.

When he starts bringing through youth or hidden gems I will be a lot more impressed.

To say they started from nothing is ridiculous. 7 of them players you mentioned would walk into 15 Premier League teams.

My supposed obsession with his spending is no different to your obsession with him supposedly having one offload the oldest squad ever (despite the evidence showing the contrary).

Alex Ferguson built the Man United club up from nothing.  When he took over from Ron Atkinson (I think) theye were awful. 

He turned them around won things and rightfully invested the riches this brought. His best squad included the Nevilles, Scholes, Butt and Beckham all through the youth system.

As well as spending huge sums he also brought huge sums in with the players he sold. 

Guardiola has walked into Man City and spent £500m because he can not because he has earned the right too. 

So there's my hand, you know under what circumstances I would need to see him as the magician many think he is. Under what circumstances would you say that he is not as good as you thought he was?

But that's the thing. What you're praising SAF there is exactly what you (or others especially) are knocking Guardiola for at Barcelona. How can you praise SAF for the introduction of the Nevilles, Butt, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc. then dismiss Guardiola's impact at Barcelona for simply acquiring amazing players such as Busquets, Messi, Pedro etc.

Here are a few questions for you... Who do you think is the best manager in the world today? Who do you think has been the best manager in the world in the last 30 years? And ultimately, what do you think makes a best manager?

I think I need to understand your reasoning before debating this. Because ultimately, I see a lot of scenarios of such 'different rules for different managers'. Praising one manager for one thing and knocking Pep for exactly the same.

I'm not convinced Guardiola is the best 'manager' in the world. I think he's the best coach in the world, in that he created something at Barcelona which was never seen before and high-profile figures at Bayern say he was the best and most innovative coach they've ever had. I personally see him as a genius in that regard.

But the best coaches don't always make the best managers. Steve McClaren is proof of that.

I think the work Guardiola has done at Barca and Bayern has given him the right to spend such amounts. City were always going to need an overhaul, we've gone over this in regards to their ageing squad numerous times, so they would have had to spend as to buy top players nowadays they cost mega bucks. 

So if you were going to trust one man to spend such sums, why wouldn't you trust Guardiola? Look at how much better players like Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Puyol, Eto'o, Villa, Toure etc. played and improved under him.

You would be hard-pressed to find an outfield player who ultimately got worse under Pep at Barca, Bayern or City. His coaching ability is genius, he gets teams and individual players reaching a level they've never reached before.

How much better is Kevin De Bruyne under Pep? Even Raheem Sterling seems to have made big strides (he still can't kick a ball properly and has no footballing brain mind you).

I just don't buy into this criticism of Pep for needing to spend money. The money these days is absurd, but that's not Pep's fault that's the fault of the way the market has gone. 

[G STAR RAM]

7 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

But that's the thing. What you're praising SAF there is exactly what you (or others especially) are knocking Guardiola for at Barcelona. How can you praise SAF for the introduction of the Nevilles, Butt, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc. then dismiss Guardiola's impact at Barcelona for simply acquiring amazing players such as Busquets, Messi, Pedro etc.

Here are a few questions for you... Who do you think is the best manager in the world today? Who do you think has been the best manager in the world in the last 30 years? And ultimately, what do you think makes a best manager?

I think I need to understand your reasoning before debating this. Because ultimately, I see a lot of scenarios of such 'different rules for different managers'. Praising one manager for one thing and knocking Pep for exactly the same.

I'm not convinced Guardiola is the best 'manager' in the world. I think he's the best coach in the world, in that he created something at Barcelona which was never seen before and high-profile figures at Bayern say he was the best and most innovative coach they've ever had. I personally see him as a genius in that regard.

But the best coaches don't always make the best managers. Steve McClaren is proof of that.

I think the work Guardiola has done at Barca and Bayern has given him the right to spend such amounts. City were always going to need an overhaul, we've gone over this in regards to their ageing squad numerous times, so they would have had to spend as to buy top players nowadays they cost mega bucks. 

So if you were going to trust one man to spend such sums, why wouldn't you trust Guardiola? Look at how much better players like Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Puyol, Eto'o, Villa, Toure etc. played and improved under him.

You would be hard-pressed to find an outfield player who ultimately got worse under Pep at Barca, Bayern or City. His coaching ability is genius, he gets teams and individual players reaching a level they've never reached before.

How much better is Kevin De Bruyne under Pep? Even Raheem Sterling seems to have made big strides (he still can't kick a ball properly and has no footballing brain mind you).

I just don't buy into this criticism of Pep for needing to spend money. The money these days is absurd, but that's not Pep's fault that's the fault of the way the market has gone. 

But regardless of the sums he is spending he is acquiring players that are already amongst the best in the world.

I could go through some of Fergusons best signings and people had hardly ever heard of them before.

Maye pointless comparing though because SAF was a manager and Pep is a coach.

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

But regardless of the sums he is spending he is acquiring players that are already amongst the best in the world.

I could go through some of Fergusons best signings and people had hardly ever heard of them before.

Maye pointless comparing though because SAF was a manager and Pep is a coach.

I don't think he is acquiring the current best players in the world.

Stones was criticised by loads at Everton, Nobody had heard of Gabriel Jesus, Sane was a promising player but nowhere near the finished article, the same can be applied for Mendy, Silva and Ederson who are all early 20s.

The difference being that SAF signed Rio Ferdinand for 30m in like 2001 which is the equivalent of 70-80m in today's market.

Pep has identified players he can coach and develop for the next 5 years.

It's not his fault that Mendy costs like 50m in today's market where 5-10 years ago he would cost 20m - the price United paid for someone like Nani or Anderson.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

8 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I don't think he is acquiring the current best players in the world.

Stones was criticised by loads at Everton, Nobody had heard of Gabriel Jesus, Sane was a promising player but nowhere near the finished article, the same can be applied for Mendy, Silva and Ederson who are all early 20s.

The difference being that SAF signed Rio Ferdinand for 30m in like 2001 which is the equivalent of 70-80m in today's market.

Pep has identified players he can coach and develop for the next 5 years.

It's not his fault that Mendy costs like 50m in today's market where 5-10 years ago he would cost 20m - the price United paid for someone like Nani or Anderson.

 

Under SAF, Man Utd bought 99 players for a total cost of just under £550m. In the process, he brought in around £300m worth of sales. So a net spend of only £10m per season! (The equivalent to approx 25m per season in today's money)

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I don't think he is acquiring the current best players in the world.

Stones was criticised by loads at Everton, Nobody had heard of Gabriel Jesus, Sane was a promising player but nowhere near the finished article, the same can be applied for Mendy, Silva and Ederson who are all early 20s.

The difference being that SAF signed Rio Ferdinand for 30m in like 2001 which is the equivalent of 70-80m in today's market.

Pep has identified players he can coach and develop for the next 5 years.

It's not his fault that Mendy costs like 50m in today's market where 5-10 years ago he would cost 20m - the price United paid for someone like Nani or Anderson.

Nobody had heard of Brazilian international Gabriel Jesus? It's comments like that which show that you will say anything to try and over egg what Guardiola is doing.

Without doing too much research on SAF, I thought he would quite often 'balance the books' often getting rid of players you would not expect him to sell. He was the master of timing. 

You seen to be praising Guardiola for signing players in their early 20s because he can coach and develop them for the next 5 years, and then knock SAF for signing 24 year old Ferdinand (who went on to play for Man Utd for over 10 years). You refer to that as a difference to what Guardiola is doing, not sure how you come to that conclusion. 

I am not saying it is Guardiolas fault what Man City are paying for players, indeed prices will be inflated because of their riches, but a huge element of these fees will be down to the perceived quality of the players they are acquiring.

[Highgate]

18 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

Alex Ferguson built the Man United club up from nothing.  When he took over from Ron Atkinson (I think) theye were awful. 

He turned them around won things and rightfully invested the riches this brought. His best squad included the Nevilles, Scholes, Butt and Beckham all through the youth system.

 

He did a great job no doubt, and the club reaped the reward of giving him the time to build the squad.  But let's not fall into the trap of thinking he didn't spend big in order to get that first league title in 1993. In fact he bought.

Viv Anderson, Brian McClair, Mark Hughes, Jim Leighton, Lee Sharpe, Mal Donaghy, Mike Phelan, Neil Webb, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Danny Wallace, Dennis Irwin, Andrei Kanchelskis, Peter Schmeichel, Paul Parker, Dion Dublin and Eric Cantona among others

All bought for substantial or very large fees by the standards of the day before he ever won the league. So yeah, Ferguson built that club up from relative mediocrity, but he did so by splashing a lot of cash.  And when they got to the top they continued to spend big.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

He did a great job no doubt, and the club reaped the reward of giving him the time to build the squad.  But let's not fall into the trap of thinking he didn't spend big in order to get that first league title in 1993. In fact he bought.

Viv Anderson, Brian McClair, Mark Hughes, Jim Leighton, Lee Sharpe, Mal Donaghy, Mike Phelan, Neil Webb, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Danny Wallace, Dennis Irwin, Andrei Kanchelskis, Peter Schmeichel, Paul Parker, Dion Dublin and Eric Cantona among others

All bought for substantial or very large fees by the standards of the day before he ever won the league. So yeah, Ferguson built that club up from relative mediocrity, but he did so by splashing a lot of cash.  And when they got to the top they continued to spend big.

Yes they were certainly up there as big spenders but net spend of £14m over 7 years was hardly anything to shout about.

The average transfer record back then was probably in the £4m region so his average spend probably equated to buying one top quality player per year.

 

[Bris Vegas]

7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Nobody had heard of Brazilian international Gabriel Jesus? It's comments like that which show that you will say anything to try and over egg what Guardiola is doing.

Without doing too much research on SAF, I thought he would quite often 'balance the books' often getting rid of players you would not expect him to sell. He was the master of timing. 

You seen to be praising Guardiola for signing players in their early 20s because he can coach and develop them for the next 5 years, and then knock SAF for signing 24 year old Ferdinand (who went on to play for Man Utd for over 10 years). You refer to that as a difference to what Guardiola is doing, not sure how you come to that conclusion. 

I am not saying it is Guardiolas fault what Man City are paying for players, indeed prices will be inflated because of their riches, but a huge element of these fees will be down to the perceived quality of the players they are acquiring.

Gabriel Jesus was hardly a household name when he joined City.

He didn't arrive from a fellow European club, and he wasn't a renowned Brazilian superstar like Neymar.

Unless you were clued up to South American football or are a FM gamer, I doubt you would have heard of him.

I'm not knocking SAF for what he did. I'm saying you can't criticise Pep for buying all the best players and not mention that's exactly what SAF did too.

You also have to take into account that SAF was given the luxury of 5+ years of poor finishes and squad building before he started to claim success there.

City will demand success now (well, at least a top four spot and further visible progression). In order to do so they have had to spend, as they couldn't just use the players they had for potential future success as the majority were in or around their 30s.

Once you have a world class team in place, you can then start to buy youngsters for a much lower price and build them up.

Chelsea have stockpiled for years now. They had the likes of Lukaku and De Bruyne on their books and allowed them to leave as they weren't good enough for a first-team spot at the time.

United allowed Pique and Pogba to leave.

City should now be in a position to acquire amazing youngsters and allow them to develop without the pressure of becoming a first-team regular straight away.

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Gabriel Jesus was hardly a household name when he joined City.

He didn't arrive from a fellow European club, and he wasn't a renowned Brazilian superstar like Neymar.

Unless you were clued up to South American football or are a FM gamer, I doubt you would have heard of him.

I'm not knocking SAF for what he did. I'm saying you can't criticise Pep for buying all the best players and not mention that's exactly what SAF did too.

You also have to take into account that SAF was given the luxury of 5+ years of poor finishes and squad building before he started to claim success there.

City will demand success now (well, at least a top four spot and further visible progression). In order to do so they have had to spend, as they couldn't just use the players they had for potential future success as the majority were in or around their 30s.

Once you have a world class team in place, you can then start to buy youngsters for a much lower price and build them up.

Chelsea have stockpiled for years now. They had the likes of Lukaku and De Bruyne on their books and allowed them to leave as they weren't good enough for a first-team spot at the time.

United allowed Pique and Pogba to leave.

City should now be in a position to acquire amazing youngsters and allow them to develop without the pressure of becoming a first-team regular straight away.

Yes can't argue with much of what you are saying there.

In terms of the players SAF bought they were a good mixture of household names and hidden gems.

 

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

Gabriel Jesus was hardly a household name when he joined City.

He didn't arrive from a fellow European club, and he wasn't a renowned Brazilian superstar like Neymar.

Unless you were clued up to South American football or are a FM gamer, I doubt you would have heard of him.

I signed him for Lincoln at least 2 years ago 

[Bris Vegas]

Not a bad week for City at all.

City 5-0 Liverpool

Feyenoord 0-4 City

Watford 0-6 City

For a team which often gets criticised for poor defending, Pep's side have only conceded two in six competitive games this season and one of those was an absolute worldie from Bournemouth.

There will no doubt be tougher tests to come, but they've made a terrific start. 

[ViewsFromTheMiddle]

Oops 

 

[G-Ram]

Pep seems to have sorted most of last seasons problems. Replaced Bravo with a decent keeper and got in some fast wing backs instead of the likes of kolerov  

The front line just wants leaving alone. KDB looks class again, went off it a bit last season. Bernard Silva looks a like for like of David Silva. They look brilliant at the moment

Only slight criticism is maybe they could do with another CB. Otemendi isnt great, kompany is always injured & stones still needs to develop 

[Jourdan]

It's only a matter of time before some people get carried away with City's start and claim that they are nailed on for the title. Paul Merson on Soccer Saturday next week, for sure.

They are having a brilliant run, no doubt about that. We know they are capable of looking imperious for a short spell of games. We saw that in the early stages of last season.

Personally, I'm not convinced that they have what it takes to deliver consistently and to be head and shoulders above the rest for 70-80% of the season in the same way that Chelsea were last season.

Man City still seem to be flat track bullies to me. Good when the going is good, but what about when they are up against it? They have beaten Watford, Bournemouth, and Brighton, all teams that will surely reside in the bottom half. The Liverpool result was fantastic but it doesn't actually indicate much. It strikes a similar chord to their early season win at Old Trafford in September 2016 - you shouldn't allow yourself to read so much into it because the season is less than 10 games old.

The real litmus test for them is whether they can continue to get positive results against other top teams. If they can go to Chelsea at the end of September and get a result, maybe us non-believers will start to believe in Pep's genius.

Honestly though, I still feel that Chelsea and Spurs will grow into the season and for City, they will begin to fade in the winter.

[Bris Vegas]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

It's only a matter of time before some people get carried away with City's start and claim that they are nailed on for the title. Paul Merson on Soccer Saturday next week, for sure.

They are having a brilliant run, no doubt about that. We know they are capable of looking imperious for a short spell of games. We saw that in the early stages of last season.

Personally, I'm not convinced that they have what it takes to deliver consistently and to be head and shoulders above the rest for 70-80% of the season in the same way that Chelsea were last season.

Man City still seem to be flat track bullies to me. Good when the going is good, but what about when they are up against it? They have beaten Watford, Bournemouth, and Brighton, all teams that will surely reside in the bottom half. The Liverpool result was fantastic but it doesn't actually indicate much. It strikes a similar chord to their early season win at Old Trafford in September 2016 - you shouldn't allow yourself to read so much into it because the season is less than 10 games old.

The real litmus test for them is whether they can continue to get positive results against other top teams. If they can go to Chelsea at the end of September and get a result, maybe us non-believers will start to believe in Pep's genius.

Honestly though, I still feel that Chelsea and Spurs will grow into the season and for City, they will begin to fade in the winter.

Man City started the two previous seasons in excellent fashion too, and the same comments 'just give them the title now' were branded about then before they started to struggle in mid-to-late Autumn.

There is no doubt a different feel about this City side, they certainly look far more balanced and suited to playing Pep's way. The introduction of another goal machine in Gabriel Jesus means there isn't a total reliance on Aguero.

They've defended much better already this season too, despite at times laving themselves short in numbers at the back. 

I agree that the upcoming Chelsea game at Stamford Bridge will be a good indicator of how much they've improved. They dominated Chelsea at the Bridge last season but typically weren't clinical enough and made mistakes at the back.

You know that City will dominate 95% of their matches this season in terms of possession, chances created and shots on goal, whether they triumph or not will be a question of prolificacy in the final third and cutting out the errors at the back.

[Bris Vegas]

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/41324212

A pro-Guardiola article on the BBC. Nice to see him get recognition for his coaching ability.

Many people bring up the huge sums which have been spent at City, the players he took over at Barca etc.

Yes he has inherited great players, but his coaching has taken them to a new level.

De Bruyne has reached a whole new level under Pep. Just as Xavi and Iniesta did.

[G STAR RAM]

5 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/41324212

A pro-Guardiola article on the BBC. Nice to see him get recognition for his coaching ability.

Many people bring up the huge sums which have been spent at City, the players he took over at Barca etc.

Yes he has inherited great players, but his coaching has taken them to a new level.

De Bruyne has reached a whole new level under Pep. Just as Xavi and Iniesta did.

If he can take players to a whole new level it makes you wonder why he got rid of so many youngsters and replaced them with multi million pound players.

[Bris Vegas]

42 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

If he can take players to a whole new level it makes you wonder why he got rid of so many youngsters and replaced them with multi million pound players.

Because players have limits.

Not every academy player has the potential to be a world class player, no matter how good of a coach you are.

Considering a couple of the players released now find themselves in League Two or the lowerleagues in Scotland, it's fairly obvious why they weren't retained.

To be a world class team you need world class players. To be a world class player you needed to have world class potential.

It's simple really.

What separates Pep from a number of others is his ability to make world class players reach a level even they never thought imaginable.

What do Lionel Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Thomas Muller, Robert Lewandowski, Arjen Robben, Kevin De Bruyne etc. all have in common? The best season of their careers have all been under Pep.

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

So is he any good at finding the kids with world class potential? 

Or is that bit just a numbers game - you sign hundreds and hope 1 or 2 float to the surface?