StringerBell Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 32 minutes ago, Paul71 said: I know a lot of figures have been given, but is there actually any data from BAME candidates suggesting they have been overlooked for jobs they knew they were as equally qualified for as other candidates? Surely that is the stat that should be looked at not how many managers and coaches compared with players there are etc? Nope. We need to force people into positions they are less qualified for (if at all), against their will if necessary, based primarily on their race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability and dietary requirements. If black people make up 12% of the population then 12% of football coaches should be black. As should refuse collectors - all professions. If this means other people have their job 'appropriated' in order to accommodate for this equality then so be it. For the greater good. (annoying ariotofmyown style sarcasm not intended to reflect anyone's views on here but this Kick it Out guys comments about 'outcomes' mean I don't trust the guys true motivations.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: That's his brief. Football clubs should be subject to the same discrimination laws as everyone else. If laws are being broken I expect that action will be taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Question for those who interview - What are the regulations about interviewing? Are football clubs subject to the same regulations as everyone else? And big companies for that matter? I seem to remember Tom Glick being 'headhunted' by Man City. Did they have to find a stooge to go and pretend to have an interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Nope. We need to force people into positions they are less qualified for (if at all), against their will if necessary, based primarily on their race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability and dietary requirements. If black people make up 12% of the population then 12% of football coaches should be black. As should refuse collectors - all professions. If this means other people have their job 'appropriated' in order to accommodate for this equality then so be it. For the greater good. (annoying ariotofmyown style sarcasm not intended to reflect anyone's views on here but this Kick it Out guys comments about 'outcomes' mean I don't trust the guys true motivations.) For me rather than just demanding that at least one BAME candidate has to be interviewed for an academy position if one applies, if it is felt there is a problem, set up a proper way that a BAME candidate can appeal if they feel they have been unfairly overlooked. Allow authorities to view application records and interview processes and make a fair and proper judgement if that candidate has been overlooked. I think we sometimes try and complicate matters too much, just put a message out saying recruitment processes have to be fair and that appeals will be handled in a fair manner and should it be felt the recruitment process has not been fair then action will be taken. Maybe even state that if any club found guilty of not being fair then any future recruitment will have to be done under strict supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Question for those who interview - What are the regulations about interviewing? Are football clubs subject to the same regulations as everyone else? And big companies for that matter? I seem to remember Tom Glick being 'headhunted' by Man City. Did they have to find a stooge to go and pretend to have an interview? I've interviewed loads of people over the years and never once have I been told to positively discriminate during selection for interview. Headhunting is legal - there is no law on how many people you have to interview for a post, or what characteristics they must have or not have The laws are around discrimination within election for post https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination/recruitment Quote Employing people with protected characteristics You can choose a candidate who has a protected characteristic over one who doesn’t if they’re both suitable for the job and you think that people with that characteristic: are underrepresented in the workforce, profession or industry suffer a disadvantage connected to that characteristic (eg people from a certain ethnic group are not often given jobs in your sector) You can only do this if you’re trying to address the under-representation or disadvantage for that particular characteristic. You must make decisions on a case by case basis and not because of a certain policy. You can’t choose a candidate who isn’t as suitable for the job just because they have a protected characteristic. But then also Quote Favouring disabled candidates When a disabled person and a non-disabled person both meet the job requirements, you can treat the disabled person more favourably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: If laws are being broken I expect that action will be taken? Football clubs and employment law are mere acquaintances. What do you imagine the average notice period for a footballer, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, StivePesley said: I've interviewed loads of people over the years and never once have I been told to positively discriminate during election for interview. Headhunting is legal - there is no law on how many people you have to interview for a post, or what characteristics they must have or not have The laws are around discrimination within election for post https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination/recruitment But then also I've read that before actually, somewhere along the way. I think it was after the BBC guy lost his job. Can't say that I agree with it at all mind. Glad headhunting is legal, would hate to think we wouldn't sign Tom Lawrence because we needed to give a random BAME player an interview too and Tom got lost on his way to interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, Paul71 said: For me rather than just demanding that at least one BAME candidate has to be interviewed for an academy position if one applies, if it is felt there is a problem, set up a proper way that a BAME candidate can appeal if they feel they have been unfairly overlooked. Allow authorities to view application records and interview processes and make a fair and proper judgement if that candidate has been overlooked. I think we sometimes try and complicate matters too much, just put a message out saying recruitment processes have to be fair and that appeals will be handled in a fair manner and should it be felt the recruitment process has not been fair then action will be taken. Maybe even state that if any club found guilty of not being fair then any future recruitment will have to be done under strict supervision. Aye, would make sense to address grievances rather than create them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: Football clubs and employment law are mere acquaintances. What do you imagine the average notice period for a footballer, for example? Not sure on your point. Are clubs breaking discrimination laws or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Not sure on your point. Are clubs breaking discrimination laws or not? I don't know. But when someone under contract to them cannot do something as basic as give notice, I think it is reasonable to wonder what else they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 44 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Nope. We need to force people into positions they are less qualified for (if at all), against their will if necessary, based primarily on their race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability and dietary requirements. If black people make up 12% of the population then 12% of football coaches should be black. As should refuse collectors - all professions. If this means other people have their job 'appropriated' in order to accommodate for this equality then so be it. For the greater good. (annoying ariotofmyown style sarcasm not intended to reflect anyone's views on here but this Kick it Out guys comments about 'outcomes' mean I don't trust the guys true motivations.) We live in a time when we see underhand motives everywhere. Sometimes they exist, sometimes not. What do you think his true motivations are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/my-heart-sinks-admits-chris-10778379 Chris Powell seems like a decent guy, so if he thinks there is an issue, I'm inclined to believe him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 19 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: I don't know. But when someone under contract to them cannot do something as basic as give notice, I think it is reasonable to wonder what else they do. A player can hand their notice in at at any time as far as I am aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: We live in a time when we see underhand motives everywhere. Sometimes they exist, sometimes not. What do you think his true motivations are? I suspect he's drank the progressive kool-aid. Based on his words about 'outcomes' I worry his motivations are for equality of outcome, not of opportunity. He should be firmly challenged on that. See my over the top, sarcastic post to Paul to see how this ideology, if delivered to its extreme could look. People forced into specific work at the decree of the state, based on race. Cultural Marxism delivered in the only way traditional Marxism can realistically be delivered, by authoritarian methods. I've no time for people who want racial 'outcomes', be that people who want a ratio of 100:0 or people who want a ratio of 50:50. I value the freedom of the individual too much and I honestly couldn't care about diversity for diversity's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: It's worth doing something about if it's an issue yes. Who are these managers/coaches that are getting overlooked? If there was a stat that 99% of refuse collectors are white, would this guy be making an issue of it? Not sure why football always seems to be targeted, couldn't be because of the money could it? This guy wouldn't particularly, I imagine, because he's representing footballers. He I'm sure would have an opinion, probably a strong one, but he's got a job to do. Rest assured though if 99% of refuse collectors were white, someone would rightly be asking why - if it is because most local authorities are run by people who don't like non-whites it's important that is known. If it's for another reason then that's fair enough - but it would warrant some investigation and attempts to change it if its for unfair reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R@M Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 18 hours ago, StringerBell said: Nope. We need to force people into positions they are less qualified for (if at all), against their will if necessary, based primarily on their race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability and dietary requirements. If black people make up 12% of the population then 12% of football coaches should be black. As should refuse collectors - all professions. If this means other people have their job 'appropriated' in order to accommodate for this equality then so be it. For the greater good. (annoying ariotofmyown style sarcasm not intended to reflect anyone's views on here but this Kick it Out guys comments about 'outcomes' mean I don't trust the guys true motivations.) Actually, 'non-white' make up approx 13% of the population. BAME is approx 3%. You could argue that they have usually been over represented manager wise as you'd only need just over2 in the top 4 divisions to hit a quota. Cap BAME players at 3%? i guess the argument is that as there are more players so there should be equally higher numbers of managers, but as you require different skill sets to be a manager to being a player this should be irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R@M Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Also, as an ageing paunch wielding white right back, I feel I am under represented in the Premier League and would like someone to take up my cause for a contract. (Please note I understand the quota may be filled in the championship by Forest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, R@M said: Actually, 'non-white' make up approx 13% of the population. BAME is approx 3%. You could argue that they have usually been over represented manager wise as you'd only need just over2 in the top 4 divisions to hit a quota. Cap BAME players at 3%? i guess the argument is that as there are more players so there should be equally higher numbers of managers, but as you require different skill sets to be a manager to being a player this should be irrelevant. Well I just said 'if' it was 12% for the sake of argument. Couldn't be bothered to look it up. But yeah thats a good point, what happens if BAME are overrepresented? Do we take action to reduce it? That's the argument if applied consistently. Reminds me of this from a couple of weeks ago. http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, StringerBell said: But yeah thats a good point, what happens if BAME are overrepresented? Do we take action to reduce it? That's the argument if applied consistently. I can't wait for our great-great-great grandkids to find out the answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 1 hour ago, StivePesley said: I can't wait for our great-great-great grandkids to find out the answer... I'll meet you in the NBA thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.