Sanctions for not interviewing BAME candidates

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, David said:

@AndyinLiverpool I can sort of see what you are saying in this topic and I wouldn't be surprised if these shortlists are down to a or b, but isn't the point these organisations are making is they feel racism is preventing BAME managers in the game?

Yet footballers are also employees In a business sense and clubs have no issues taking on BAME players, I would guesstimate the percentage is pretty high across the PL and FL.

I find it really hard to believe this is a racism issue. We're ok with you playing but not managing, really?

Thats why I find it hard to understand why it would help forcing clubs to interview one BAME manager, ok it might only take an hour out of your day but why should JFH jump the line of better qualified managers because of his skin colour, isn't that racism itself?

I'm all for clubs having to interview more candidates, throw in as many wild cards as you like but at no point should any manager be in that interview room to fill a hey look at us we're not racist quota. Although hasn't it been proven already in this topic wild cards such as Giggs, Ramsey and Barnes have been given top jobs?

If you're wanting managers only employed on experience you will be reducing the statistic of BAME managers in the game as the argument is there isn't enough already.

Also if an owner is racist and has no intention of employing a BAME manager, an hour in a room with him is unlikely to change his mind.

I think Scott nailed it earlier in the topic that it's a transition which we will see over time, it wasn't until 1971 the first black player represented England. 1980 the first black player to play for Liverpool to think he is only 59 today shows how far football has come in recent years.

Over the next 20 years I'm sure the statistic will rise further naturally, although it will be interesting to see how many players regardless of skin colour make the transition from player to manager, the money in the game today can allow players to retire at 20 and never lift a finger again. 

Will the likes of Jesse Lingard earning 100k have the passion to move into management which has become a ruthless career path, will he fancy moving around the country every 12 months as owners pull the trigger, moving his family about?

 

 

I am looking at it another way - that the other candidates are not better qualified and that black coaches are being denied their place in the line.

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I am looking at it another way - that the other candidates are not better qualified and that black coaches are being denied their place in the line.

I'd say it's not overt racism at play, more just the old boys network in football is a pretty closed shop. That's why you see the same old failures resurface to have another go. If you're not connected you'll not get that head start. If you're black or other minority ethnicity, you'll be even less likely to be in the club.

[Alph]

Seriously, you can get a job in top flight football if you've done time in prison, raped someone, killed someone, been in a gang, beat up your girlfriend, bitten someone and have been banned for racism.

Why?

Because clubs will do anything to get the edge on their rivals

Even hire a black manager!!! Yes, I know... It's a new low we're sinking to here. It was only last year we were dragging them over from Africa as slaves. 

Let's have some examples. Any job, any chairman. Let's get some names. Name that racist. 

Do you give a fook if Derby had a black manager? Does anyone you know? Do you think Mel Morris would turn away Chris Hughton? No. No. No. 

Do you care if your kids have a black manager? Nope. 

Who are all these racists? 

Is Fawaz racist? Hiring white managers. What about Carson Yeung? The Brum fella? Racist. And the Thai owners at Leicester... how many ethnic minorities did those white supremacists interview?

The stats say that not that many BAME are applying. So is it really that shocking. 

Surely the pattern of % BAME coaches reflects the % of BAME players in previous years. Just because the FL has xx % BAME players it didn't have xx% 10 years ago who are going into coaching now.

What % of white players go into coaching? Is it a similar % of a much bigger figure?

[Rev]

Who gets to decide who's a BAME candidate?

Ryan Giggs may identify as such for all we know, and where does it stop?

We've had loads of Irish born players in England over the years, do their stats match up from playing to managing, if not, why not include them in this rule?

It does seem to me that recruitment of managers is happening from a wider pool than previously, background wise, and as this trend continues maybe more BAME managers will come to the fore.

 

 

[ossieram]

I haven't read all the posts on this because I couldn't be bothered, but surely if a club owner is racist it doesn't matter how many Black or Asian candidates he is forced to interview, he won't give them the job.   

[AndyinLiverpool]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I'd say it's not overt racism at play, more just the old boys network in football is a pretty closed shop. That's why you see the same old failures resurface to have another go. If you're not connected you'll not get that head start. If you're black or other minority ethnicity, you'll be even less likely to be in the club.

That's precisely it. You want someone to build a legacy at your club? Someone to say where your money is spent? Don't get the best person for the job; get one of your mates, preferably one with a drink problem (e.g. A club in the north east that plays in red) or someone you thought was a good player (Birmingham city) or someone out of a job because they were incompetent at their last club (countless). 

[AndyinLiverpool]

7 minutes ago, ossieram said:

I haven't read all the posts on this because I couldn't be bothered, but surely if a club owner is racist it doesn't matter how many Black or Asian candidates he is forced to interview, he won't give them the job.   

Indeed not. But he'll have explain to the candidate why. 

Anyway, I see this less of a racism problem and more one of competence at the top. It's necessary to widen the managerial gene pool. 

[Alph]

11 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Indeed not. But he'll have explain to the candidate why. 

Anyway, I see this less of a racism problem and more one of competence at the top. It's necessary to widen the managerial gene pool. 

Definitely. But as you say yourself, race is nothing to do with it. 

How many Championship clubs would consider Chris Hughton worthy of a managerial position in the future. I'd say all of them. And I doubt he's going to get any whiter. 

[The Key Club King]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Surely the pattern of % BAME coaches reflects the % of BAME players in previous years. Just because the FL has xx % BAME players it didn't have xx% 10 years ago who are going into coaching now.

Currently BAME coaches are 1 in every 25. Pretty sure that there were a lot more than that on the field 10 years ago. Probably was 30 years ago for that matter.

[Zag zig]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Indeed not. But he'll have explain to the candidate why. 

Anyway, I see this less of a racism problem and more one of competence at the top. It's necessary to widen the managerial gene pool. 

Agree with that, the problem for BAME candidates, they won't get into that gene pool because a owner(employer) can always say their is a more experienced candidate or xyz person fits what we are looking for better due to their view of the game.

Anyone who conducts a lot of interviews will vouch it's a generally subjective process, football coaches probably even more so. So unless a owner really wants the applicant, the likes of BAME can rant all they want but I doubt it will change much, until more BAME coaches come through the grass roots, pretty much like Des Walker in our academy is doing right now.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, The Key Club King said:

Currently BAME coaches are 1 in every 25. Pretty sure that there were a lot more than that on the field 10 years ago. Probably was 30 years ago for that matter.

And then of those how many went into coaching? In comparison to the white guys. 

It's massively relevant. 

[Guest]

As far as I can see it is Lord Ouseley that is the racist as all he seems to want to do is discriminate against white people.

Where is his campaign for more female or disabled managers?

And what did he have to say when Chelsea youth team fielded 10 BAME players and 1 white player the other week, I assume he was furious about this?

[AndyinLiverpool]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

As far as I can see it is Lord Ouseley that is the racist as all he seems to want to do is discriminate against white people.

Where is his campaign for more female or disabled managers?

And what did he have to say when Chelsea youth team fielded 10 BAME players and 1 white player the other week, I assume he was furious about this?

Poor white people. We must rise up and take control.

[Anon]

7 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Poor white people. We must rise up and take control.

Maybe they will if idiots like yourself keep framing discussions about equality as race war. Don't worry though, if it should come to pass, I'm sure your pathetic white guilt complex will keep you safe.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Poor white people. We must rise up and take control.

Exactly the sort of response I expect from people.

I assume you do realise that women and disabled people can be BAME too?

Try answering the points I made...

 

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

As far as I can see it is Lord Ouseley that is the racist as all he seems to want to do is discriminate against white people.

How is he discriminating against "white people" exactly? No one is saying that they should interview LESS white people

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where is his campaign for more female or disabled managers?

He's the Chairman of the Kick It Out campaign. Durrr

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

And what did he have to say when Chelsea youth team fielded 10 BAME players and 1 white player the other week, I assume he was furious about this?

Why would he be furious? And besides that, no one is suggesting that BAME players get overlooked because of their race. Players are picked on merit. It appears that this happens less so with managers.

For what it's worth I don't think this idea will help, but that's no reason to go all pig ignorant about the issue

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Why would he be furious? And besides that, no one is suggesting that BAME players get overlooked because of their race. Players are picked on merit. It appears that this happens less so with managers.

For what it's worth I don't think this idea will help, but that's no reason to go all pig ignorant about the issue

He would be furious because he wants discrimination eliminating from the game right?

10 out 11 BAME players is completely disproportionate right

Oh no, that is on pure merit, but when the boot is on the other foot it's because of racism, I see.

Can you provide me with even one single piece of evidence that backs up your claim that managers are not being picked on merit and purely based on skin colour?

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

Maybe they will if idiots like yourself keep framing discussions about equality as race war. Don't worry though, if it should come to pass, I'm sure your pathetic white guilt complex will keep you safe.

Except at no point in this thread have I said this. I may be an idiot (you could not know this) but at least I haven't resorted to cheap name calling. 

To reiterate, I am looking at equality from the point of view that things as they currently stand are not equal; others, some of whom cry discrimination against white people, seem to believe that they are. My contribution has been along the lines of clubs not doing the recruitment job properly. 

If that makes me an idiot, then so be it. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Exactly the sort of response I expect from people.

I assume you do realise that women and disabled people can be BAME too?

Try answering the points I made...

 

The points are not really there though. Chelsea fielded a lot of black players? What is the point you are making? Someone is not as cross as you think they should be? 

No sorry, don't understand. But as someone else has already noted on this thread, I am an idiot. 

[Stive Pesley]

46 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

He would be furious because he wants discrimination eliminating from the game right?

10 out 11 BAME players is completely disproportionate right

Oh no, that is on pure merit, but when the boot is on the other foot it's because of racism, I see.

Can you provide me with even one single piece of evidence that backs up your claim that managers are not being picked on merit and purely based on skin colour?

Can't really be arsed with the wummery, but you don't need to do a deep dive into stats land to get a feel for

1) the percentage of BAME players vs non BAME players

2) the percentage of Managers/Coaches who are ex-players

The percentage of BAME Managers/Coaches should then be roughly around the same ratio but it's not. It's nothing like it. So why is that? If you're saying it's not racism (and it might not be) then what do you think explains it?

I mean I'd rather have a meaningful discussion rather than triggering a load of WAAH WHAT ABOUT RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!! guff.