Sanctions for not interviewing BAME candidates

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

Yeah I'd agree with that, might even have an adverse impact. 

I'm yet to see any convincing evidence there's a problem anyway. Some people talk about there not being too many black managers, but I think there'll be more in the future. Doubtful with Asian managers though, they might want to become footballers first. Not too many of them around.

It's a natural progression. There hasn't been many black managers in the past, because prior to that, there wasn't many black players. Percentage of black players is now much greater, the manager figures will also continue to rise as a result.

[GboroRam]

3 hours ago, Srg said:

They have the Rooney Rule in the NFL, which means you HAVE to interview BAME candidates.

Maybe I'm naïve, but I always thought the best person would get the job when it comes to trying to win games in any sport, and forcing you to interview a lesser candidate to just fill a quota is almost like racism in itself. I know I wouldn't like to be that candidate.

It presumably is better to be given an interview because of your ethnicity than not be given an interview because of your ethnicity. Neither option is good but to deny someone an opportunity because of their ethnic background is far more abhorrent than the other way around. As long as it's opportunities rather than recruitment that's being targeted I can live with it.

[Bessie1]

I lived in the US 2000 to 2002.  There were reasons to introduce the Rooney Rule.  A majority of NFL players were/are black, but coaches and fans were/are mostly white.  I know the best players don't necessarily make the best coaches, but at the time it didn't "feel" right.  Also some good and successful black coaches got fired - these were difficult to explain.  Furthermore, the "whiteness" of NFL coaches was in contrast to the NBA (another largely "played by black, watched by white" elite sport) which saw a large increase in black coaches from the 90s into the 00s.  So people were saying - there's something wrong going on in the NFL.  And the Rooney Rule did have an effect but it looks like (from a quick Google search) that it might not have been sustainable.

It's controversial I know, but there were underlying factors.  

The key message for me is - these underlying factors do not exist in English football.

(Also I could argue against myself re: NBA - their number of black coaches increased from 90s to 00s WITHOUT a Rooney Rule - which does suggest that if the candidates are good enough, they'll get the job regardless of ethnicity).

    

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

You are taking what I said out of context.

If you want me to use Daveo's JFH example, it would be like Man Utd having to interview him along with candidates like Mourinho when their vacancy came up - just because of his ethnicity, not because of his achievements or standing in the game.

Fair enough but I didn't see that there was any context.

I still think it is not realistic to believe that the best person gets the job of manager. Anything that lengthens interview shortlists, or even gets clubs to actually interview at all, has to be good for the prospects of the club. Instead of hiring on a whim or on reputation (in the case of Gianfranco Zola, reputation in a different skill set), clubs actually going through a recruitment process beyond, 'He's ok, let's ask him' has to be a good thing. It seems to me that football clubs are lazy and unimaginative when it comes to hiring their top football person. Anything that forces them to do otherwise, I support.

Why shouldn't Man Utd interview JFH? It would only take an hour or so out of their day. And when JFH asks for feedback on why he didn't get the job, as is his right, the club would have to explain why.

[The Key Club King]

I think the main reason the Rooney Rule is required is because often coaches and managers in football get taken on initially with little or no experience and there are a lot more candidates (i.e. ex-players) than there are positions. This is when unconscious bias often comes into play - the general perception of a football manager is of a white man and this gets replicated. 

BAME players have made up a significant percentage of players in England for many years and though you would expect a delayed effect in terms of increasing BAME coach recruitment post-retirement, this hasn't really happened yet.  

[Srg]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Fair enough but I didn't see that there was any context.

I still think it is not realistic to believe that the best person gets the job of manager. Anything that lengthens interview shortlists, or even gets clubs to actually interview at all, has to be good for the prospects of the club. Instead of hiring on a whim or on reputation (in the case of Gianfranco Zola, reputation in a different skill set), clubs actually going through a recruitment process beyond, 'He's ok, let's ask him' has to be a good thing. It seems to me that football clubs are lazy and unimaginative when it comes to hiring their top football person. Anything that forces them to do otherwise, I support.

Why shouldn't Man Utd interview JFH? It would only take an hour or so out of their day. And when JFH asks for feedback on why he didn't get the job, as is his right, the club would have to explain why.

The same reason they shouldn't interview you or I, I would imagine. Because we do not have anywhere near the experience or resume required to take on such a job.

[StringerBell]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Fair enough but I didn't see that there was any context.

I still think it is not realistic to believe that the best person gets the job of manager. Anything that lengthens interview shortlists, or even gets clubs to actually interview at all, has to be good for the prospects of the club. Instead of hiring on a whim or on reputation (in the case of Gianfranco Zola, reputation in a different skill set), clubs actually going through a recruitment process beyond, 'He's ok, let's ask him' has to be a good thing. It seems to me that football clubs are lazy and unimaginative when it comes to hiring their top football person. Anything that forces them to do otherwise, I support.

Why shouldn't Man Utd interview JFH? It would only take an hour or so out of their day. And when JFH asks for feedback on why he didn't get the job, as is his right, the club would have to explain why.

Why not force them to interview me? It'll only take them an hour?

[Sith Happens]

Just now, StringerBell said:

Why not force them to interview me? It'll only take them an hour?

Having seen how long your posts can be I doubt it will take just an hour

 

[Ewe Ram]

The bare fact is that they can force clubs to interview whoever they like but can't ensure they get the job. 

If we are being pedantic why don't they interview any women? You don't have to be a top player to make a good coach or manager. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

The same reason they shouldn't interview you or I, I would imagine. Because we do not have anywhere near the experience or resume required to take on such a job.

And yet they gave David Moyes (limited CV and experience), Ryan Giggs the job on a temporary basis (without the experience or CV)l Van Gaal, with an impressive CV and loads of experience, came along, spent shitlaods and bored the pants off every Man Utd supporter I know.

The couldn't give the job to me because I don't have the qualifications, which is an easy filter and cuts out the timewasters.

When I interview, I always interview a couple of wild cards because you simply never know.

[Srg]

2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

And yet they gave David Moyes (limited CV and experience), Ryan Giggs the job on a temporary basis (without the experience or CV)l Van Gaal, with an impressive CV and loads of experience, came along, spent shitlaods and bored the pants off every Man Utd supporter I know.

The couldn't give the job to me because I don't have the qualifications, which is an easy filter and cuts out the timewasters.

When I interview, I always interview a couple of wild cards because you simply never know.

Well Moyes' CV is debatable, but top flight and at one club for a decade is not to be sniffed at. Promoting an assistant temporarily and then a highly decorated manager. Don't see an issue with hiring any of those... hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Sith Happens]

I think the main reason they didnt interview JFH for the united job was that to the best our our knowledge he didnt apply for it.

[Day]

10 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

And yet they gave David Moyes (limited CV and experience), Ryan Giggs the job on a temporary basis (without the experience or CV)l Van Gaal, with an impressive CV and loads of experience, came along, spent shitlaods and bored the pants off every Man Utd supporter I know.

The couldn't give the job to me because I don't have the qualifications, which is an easy filter and cuts out the timewasters.

When I interview, I always interview a couple of wild cards because you simply never know.

Chris Ramsey took QPR down with a blank CV and was given the job still, how many would have been better qualified to take over?

John Barnes walked into the top job in Scotland. 

Edgar David's at Barnet.

Not all managers are appointed by experience and qualifications, sometimes having a connection with a club or just a big name can swing it for you. Happens everywhere.

Nigel Clough at Derby, you could argue he did his time lower down the leagues and deserved a chance but the welcome he received would not have been the same had it been Nigel Smith.

Is it right? Probably not but when you have owners coming in from abroad some don't have a clue and go straight for the fans heart strings, Fawaz and Stuart Pearce, horrendous record yet gets the job.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Just now, Srg said:

Well Moyes' CV is debatable, but top flight and at one club for a decade is not to be sniffed at. Promoting an assistant temporarily and then a highly decorated manager. Don't see an issue with hiring any of those... hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Not even Moyes could get Everton relegated. Various managers have been trying that for 70-odd years.

To my mind, the recruitment process should be designed to minimise the need for Captain Hindsight. It's never going to be perfect but not to look for the best you can reasonably aspire to is dereliction. You might say that van Gaal was the best available so it was an easy choice but I wonder how wide they cast their net.

Likewise, at Derby, I wonder how many candidates were interviewed before Steve McLaren was given the job (on both occasions), or Paul Clement, or Nigel Pearson, or Even Gary Rowett. To say nothing of Paul Jewell, Billy Davies or Nigel Clough. (I feel I have missed someone). If football clubs were subject to accreditation bodies or umbrella organisations, I'm pretty sure most of them would fail inspections because of recruitment policies.

If you keep hiring from the same pool you can expect the same thing. Like the Spanish Habsburgs.

[Srg]

4 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Not even Moyes could get Everton relegated. Various managers have been trying that for 70-odd years.

To my mind, the recruitment process should be designed to minimise the need for Captain Hindsight. It's never going to be perfect but not to look for the best you can reasonably aspire to is dereliction. You might say that van Gaal was the best available so it was an easy choice but I wonder how wide they cast their net.

Likewise, at Derby, I wonder how many candidates were interviewed before Steve McLaren was given the job (on both occasions), or Paul Clement, or Nigel Pearson, or Even Gary Rowett. To say nothing of Paul Jewell, Billy Davies or Nigel Clough. (I feel I have missed someone). If football clubs were subject to accreditation bodies or umbrella organisations, I'm pretty sure most of them would fail inspections because of recruitment policies.

If you keep hiring from the same pool you can expect the same thing. Like the Spanish Habsburgs.

But that's a different argument, that's not an argument for interviewing black managers just because they're black. That's just not hiring the same old re-treads and the obvious people just because they're obvious. That argument is something everyone can agree with.

[AndyinLiverpool]

5 minutes ago, David said:

Chris Ramsey took QPR down with a blank CV and was given the job still, how many would have been better qualified to take over?

John Barnes walked into the top job in Scotland. 

Edgar David's at Barnet.

Not all managers are appointed by experience and qualifications, sometimes having a connection with a club or just a big name can swing it for you. Happens everywhere.

Nigel Clough at Derby, you could argue he did his time lower down the leagues and deserved a chance but the welcome he received would not have been the same had it been Nigel Smith.

Is it right? Probably not but when you have owners coming in from abroad some don't have a clue and go straight for the fans heart strings, Fawaz and Stuart Pearce, horrendous record yet gets the job.

And we fall for it.

Arsenal fans were grumpy as hell in 1996 when Wenger was appointed. Actually, come to think of it, they are still grumpy as hell.

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 minutes ago, Srg said:

But that's a different argument, that's not an argument for interviewing black managers just because they're black. That's just not hiring the same old re-treads and the obvious people just because they're obvious. That argument is something everyone can agree with.

I see it as part of the same argument. Go through the process as every other company should - consider a wide range of options. The current range is predominantly white.

[Day]

@AndyinLiverpool I can sort of see what you are saying in this topic and I wouldn't be surprised if these shortlists are down to a or b, but isn't the point these organisations are making is they feel racism is preventing BAME managers in the game?

Yet footballers are also employees In a business sense and clubs have no issues taking on BAME players, I would guesstimate the percentage is pretty high across the PL and FL.

I find it really hard to believe this is a racism issue. We're ok with you playing but not managing, really?

Thats why I find it hard to understand why it would help forcing clubs to interview one BAME manager, ok it might only take an hour out of your day but why should JFH jump the line of better qualified managers because of his skin colour, isn't that racism itself?

I'm all for clubs having to interview more candidates, throw in as many wild cards as you like but at no point should any manager be in that interview room to fill a hey look at us we're not racist quota. Although hasn't it been proven already in this topic wild cards such as Giggs, Ramsey and Barnes have been given top jobs?

If you're wanting managers only employed on experience you will be reducing the statistic of BAME managers in the game as the argument is there isn't enough already.

Also if an owner is racist and has no intention of employing a BAME manager, an hour in a room with him is unlikely to change his mind.

I think Scott nailed it earlier in the topic that it's a transition which we will see over time, it wasn't until 1971 the first black player represented England. 1980 the first black player to play for Liverpool to think he is only 59 today shows how far football has come in recent years.

Over the next 20 years I'm sure the statistic will rise further naturally, although it will be interesting to see how many players regardless of skin colour make the transition from player to manager, the money in the game today can allow players to retire at 20 and never lift a finger again. 

Will the likes of Jesse Lingard earning 100k have the passion to move into management which has become a ruthless career path, will he fancy moving around the country every 12 months as owners pull the trigger, moving his family about?

 

 

[EnigmaRam]

I really do hate all this nonsense. People must do this because of race, religion, skin colour etc. Absolute joke. 

They were doing incentives for women to get more involved with grass roots football. Why? If they were interested they would. Most of the time it's the dad that sticks his hand up. Nothing stopping women doing so, so why should they get discounts and other incentives when the men don't. 

The person that can be bothered to give up their free time or the person with the best qualifications end of. 

Stop being racists against white working men

i feel so victimised these days

[The Key Club King]

If race is not an issue when it comes to clubs hiring managers and coaches then why is the BAME representation so low?