Sanctions for not interviewing BAME candidates

[Day]

English Football League clubs should face sanctions if they do not agree to interview black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) candidates for coaching jobs, says the chair of Kick It Out.

Lord Herman Ouseley praised an EFL pilot of the 'Rooney Rule' at academy level, but said representation of BAME people remains "shameful".

Eleven academy jobs were given to BAME candidates last season. 

Ouseley believes the whole professional game needs "root-and-branch reform".

Clubs have got away with doing little or nothing to achieve fair outcomes. That position is untenable and unacceptable in 2017

Lord OuseleyChair of Kick It Out

All 72 EFL clubs signed up to the 'Rooney Rule' pilot, which means they must include at least one black or minority ethnic candidate on the interview shortlist for an academy post if such an application is received.

Ten clubs voluntarily chose to extend that to first-team roles.

Of those 10, only Birmingham, Chesterfield, Coventry and Wolves changed managers during the 2016-17 season. Of the seven managerial changes, the rule was put into effect twice.

Ouseley, who founded anti-discrimination organisation Kick It Out in 1993, said the new rule has started to move football in the right direction.

"The EFL deserves praise for getting this pilot off the ground," he said.

"While it has not as yet yielded the results which many hope it would, it nevertheless took us further than before because some black, Asian and minority ethnic qualified coaches got interviews for academy posts, and 11 actually got jobs, which is better than what has gone before.

"There is a genuine commitment from the EFL to move forward positively, and they require the support and encouragement from everyone who share in seeing the game become more inclusive and better for everyone."

Ouseley said there was still an issue with discrimination against BAME administrators, coaches and managers.

"The EFL is not the only part of football where this exists," he said. "The whole professional game, and significant parts of the grassroots game, require root-and-branch reform.

"For maximum effectiveness, that would have to be backed up by penalties and sanctions for non-compliance because, as the pilot shows, clubs have got away with doing little or nothing to achieve fair outcomes. That position is untenable and unacceptable in 2017."

By the end of last season, the number of BAME managers in the top four divisions of English football had fallen to two - Chris Hughton at Brighton and Hove Albion, and Keith Curle at Carlisle.

BAME players account for more than a quarter of professional squads.

• 123 academy jobs were advertised on the EFL website.
• The EFL received data relating to 76 of those jobs.
• 1,497 applications were received for those 76 jobs.
• In 170 of the applications, the candidate defined their ethnicity as BAME (11%).
• 18% of the 1,497 applications led to an interview, increasing to 31% for all BAME applicants, and 52% for the 99 applications made by BAME candidates who were suitably qualified for the role.
• 11 BAME candidates were appointed to the 76 jobs (14%).

Read More >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40561492

[Joe.]

22 minutes ago, David said:

•  
• In 170 of the applications, the candidate defined their ethnicity as BAME (11%).
• 18% of the 1,497 applications led to an interview, increasing to 31% for all BAME applicants, and 52% for the 99 applications made by BAME candidates who were suitably qualified for the role.
• 11 BAME candidates were appointed to the 76 jobs (14%).

If those are the statistics, I can't really see the issue tbh

[Srg]

They have the Rooney Rule in the NFL, which means you HAVE to interview BAME candidates.

Maybe I'm naïve, but I always thought the best person would get the job when it comes to trying to win games in any sport, and forcing you to interview a lesser candidate to just fill a quota is almost like racism in itself. I know I wouldn't like to be that candidate.

[Alph]

What a load of garbage.

Come on Kick it Out. Name the racists. Name drop. Let's have some specifics. 

It's Britain 2017. "I have a dream that a black man can get a job in this country"... Oh fook off. 

How many white people didn't get the job. 

How is it helping when Villa interview Jimmy Hasselbaink? How does Jimmy feel about being there to tick a box. 

If and it's a big IF there is an issue here (which there isn't) then it's much lower down than this level. Mel Morris would employ Kanye West if he could get Derby promoted. 

What "BAME" Manager would you want at Derby? 

It's hard for new managers to break the clique anyway. But the rules are simple... make the break through and you'll get work. Chris Houghton will always find work. David Wagner has made a break through. 

Fook off making an issue where there isn't one and making a mockery of this s**t.

What colour is Lord Ousley out of interest. 

[Day]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Mel Morris would employ Kanye West if he could get Derby promoted. 

Please don't give him any ideas.

[Ewe Ram]

This is discrimination in itself, but they've even found a lovely name for that, being 'positive discrimination'. 

[SaintRam]

17 minutes ago, Srg said:

They have the Rooney Rule in the NFL, which means you HAVE to interview BAME candidates.

Maybe I'm naïve, but I always thought the best person would get the job when it comes to trying to win games in any sport, and forcing you to interview a lesser candidate to just fill a quota is almost like racism in itself. I know I wouldn't like to be that candidate.

The idea of them being interviewed is to make sure the best person is getting the job, because discrimination among owners/management of nfl teams stopped them even looking at BAME candidates credentials or allowing them to pitch their case - meaning it was impossible to say that the person hired was indeed the best candidate.

If rules came in saying you had to hire a certain number of BAME candidates I'd agree but, seeing as they don't have to replace white candidates for BAME candidates (they can just add them to the list to be interviewed) I don't really think its that big a deal.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Positive descrimination is not a good way of resolving things, but as a tool for change it can be effective AS LONG AS it is used sparingly AND end decisions come down to merit.

I'm with Saint ram - interviews are one thing, hire quota would be another.

I still remember Jose making a comment a few years ago along the line of "football is too ruthless a business to let racism get in the way"

[Day]

5 hours ago, SaintRam said:

The idea of them being interviewed is to make sure the best person is getting the job, because discrimination among owners/management of nfl teams stopped them even looking at BAME candidates credentials or allowing them to pitch their case - meaning it was impossible to say that the person hired was indeed the best candidate.

The idea is bonkers as it's impossible to say who the best candidate is regardless of skin colour. Back to football take the Pearson appointment at Derby, the football world wasn't in shock, in fact many believed he could be the man to take us up. Turns out he was one of the worst managers we have ever had.

As a BAME would you want to be that statistic to satisfy the FL knowing that you're only being interviewed on your skin colour?

Same as the BBC insisting a female is on the panel on comedy shows now.

Maybe I'm being ignorant to a problem that is big in football was a BAME manager/coach I'd like to think I would prefer there not to be this rule in place so when I walk through the door I am there on merit not the way I look.

If I was an owner I would forget TV rights and get a slander case going for suggesting we were all racist. 

[cannable]

I remember a few years back the FA launched a scheme in which if you were BAME you would get a bursary towards your first coaching badges.

The FA's Twitter was totally oblivious that this was racist. 

[ketteringram]

Not football related, but not sure how this one is even legal. 

https://creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/trainee-production-intern/

"All roles advertised through Creative Access are only open to UK nationals from a black, Asian or non-white ethnic minority."

[Day]

6 minutes ago, ketteringram said:

Not football related, but not sure how this one is even legal. 

https://creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/trainee-production-intern/

"All roles advertised through Creative Access are only open to UK nationals from a black, Asian or non-white ethnic minority."

Not racist, had it been "All roles advertised through Creative Access are only open to UK white nationals" now that's racist as it's discrimating against BAME nationals.

You can't discrimate against white skin, those are the rules.

 

 

Apparently.

[StringerBell]

I completely disagree with @SaintRam. Although, in certain (exceptionally dire) circumstances I'm open to be persuaded that a heavy handed authoritarian measure could be beneficial, and that would have to be one hell of a persuasion (even in South Africa positive discrimination has gone wrong), I fail to see how this situation merits it. So it's only an interview? Well wouldn't that deny someone else an opportunity to gain employment based on race? That's racist. 

Besides, let me get all slippery slope fallacy for a minute. "Clubs have got away with doing little or nothing to achieve fair outcomes." An interview is an 'opportunity' but they want to effect 'outcomes' eh?

This is the crux of the problem. In a liberal society there is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Who, apart from racist people, cares if the racial demographics of any given profession don't match up entirely with the demographics of the country as a whole? You would expect there to be a discrepancy. When you have someone saying this, that outcome is what matters, that should ring alarm bells that discriminating at the interview process is only a stepping stone to what this organisation really want to do.

[SaintRam]

19 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

I completely disagree with @SaintRam. Although, in certain (exceptionally dire) circumstances I'm open to be persuaded that a heavy handed authoritarian measure could be beneficial, and that would have to be one hell of a persuasion (even in South Africa positive discrimination has gone wrong), I fail to see how this situation merits it. So it's only an interview? Well wouldn't that deny someone else an opportunity to gain employment based on race? That's racist. 

Besides, let me get all slippery slope fallacy for a minute. "Clubs have got away with doing little or nothing to achieve fair outcomes." An interview is an 'opportunity' but they want to effect 'outcomes' eh?

This is the crux of the problem. In a liberal society there is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Who, apart from racist people, cares if the racial demographics of any given profession don't match up entirely with the demographics of the country as a whole? You would expect there to be a discrepancy. When you have someone saying this, that outcome is what matters, that should ring alarm bells that discriminating at the interview process is only a stepping stone to what this organisation really want to do.

To be honest, I think my stance of not really seeing this as a big deal is more to do with my general apathy towards the concept of people not getting jobs for reasons like race. Not to mention the more trivial reasons such as someone not getting hired because they're fat etc.

I'd take note if people started being forced to hire based on race, which is already the case in some industries, was the point I was trying to make. 

My explanation of the Roony rule was just how the NFL explained it, in my recollection.

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 hours ago, Srg said:

They have the Rooney Rule in the NFL, which means you HAVE to interview BAME candidates.

Maybe I'm naïve, but I always thought the best person would get the job when it comes to trying to win games in any sport, and forcing you to interview a lesser candidate to just fill a quota is almost like racism in itself. I know I wouldn't like to be that candidate.

'Lesser candidates'? Why are they 'lesser'? Because they are not mates of the owner? Not represented by particular agents?

I would have thought what experience will have told you is that football management is about as meritocratic as Eton.

 

[StringerBell]

My badly worded post above makes it sound as though it's clear cut someone would definitely be discriminated against by including a BAME candidate. That wouldn't necessarily be true although it could well do (if candidates for interview were whittled down to the top 10 for instance).

[StringerBell]

2 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

To be honest, I think my stance of not really seeing this as a big deal is more to do with my general apathy towards the concept of people not getting jobs for reasons like race. Not to mention the more trivial reasons such as someone not getting hired because they're fat etc.

I'd take note if people started being forced to hire based on race, which is already the case in some industries, was the point I was trying to make. 

My explanation of the Roony rule was just how the NFL explained it, in my recollection.

Yeah obviously hiring is more substantial than interviewing but I'm not comfortable with people being discriminated against in a positive or negative way based on race at any point in the process.

[Srg]

5 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

'Lesser candidates'? Why are they 'lesser'? Because they are not mates of the owner? Not represented by particular agents?

I would have thought what experience will have told you is that football management is about as meritocratic as Eton.

 

You are taking what I said out of context.

If you want me to use Daveo's JFH example, it would be like Man Utd having to interview him along with candidates like Mourinho when their vacancy came up - just because of his ethnicity, not because of his achievements or standing in the game.

[SaintRam]

10 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

Yeah obviously hiring is more substantial than interviewing but I'm not comfortable with people being discriminated against in a positive or negative way based on race at any point in the process.

Fair enough. 

Personally I think trying to force a business, under racist/prejudice management, to not be racist/prejudice is fighting a losing battle anyway. 

If your (the royal your, not you specifically) dream is for equal opportunity, you need whatever % of the population that care to stop giving a s**t about the various reasons people have to prevent someone from having an opportunity.

I don't think creating rules/laws around it is a good way to stop people giving a s**t, but thats just me.

[StringerBell]

9 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Fair enough. 

Personally I think trying to force a business, under racist/prejudice management, to not be racist/prejudice is fighting a losing battle anyway. 

If your (the royal your, not you specifically) dream is for equal opportunity, you need whatever % of the population that care to stop giving a s**t about the various reasons people have to prevent someone from having an opportunity.

I don't think creating rules/laws around it is a good way to stop people giving a s**t, but thats just me.

Yeah I'd agree with that, might even have an adverse impact. 

I'm yet to see any convincing evidence there's a problem anyway. Some people talk about there not being too many black managers, but I think there'll be more in the future. Doubtful with Asian managers though, they might want to become footballers first. Not too many of them around.