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Keogh


TroyDyer

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42 minutes ago, bcnram said:

I have said before  that Keogh's best period by far with Derby was when he played under Paul Clement. He was disciplined in his play, he didn't go charging about, he held his position and looked like a good defender so he does have it in him. What I see in him now though is a player who doesn't have the ability to stand still, he leaves his man to chase the ball, he does bring the ball out of defence but rarely seems to know where he is going with it, mainly because his head is down at the time. The result is that he either stops dead and plays it back, or he misses a simple pass because he is too busy running with the ball. 

I don't tend to talk about mistakes he makes because all players do that even in the Prem. I am more in the camp that thinks we can do better with a solid defender who thinks about the game a little more and isn't so reactive to situations outside of his immediate responsibility. When I think of the better central defenders that Derby County have had. None of them charged around - all of them read the game way better.

A fair reasoned assessment and point of view.  Better than some of the blind criticism he gets on other sites.  I see it slightly different in that he brings the ball out from the back generally when nothing else is happening and at least generates some momentum.  Far from perfect and if we can get better then great, just don't let him go without having a clear plan as to who we will bring in as at this level he is one of the better centre backs in my opinion

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7 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

Have to emphatically disagree with this. Even the most ardent Keoghites admit that he often passes the buck and berates teammates. I'm still trying to get over the bollocking he gave Albentosa because Keogh went to take a throw in, the linesman gave it the other way, and Keogh had to leg it back having been caught out of position. 

I'll leave the emphasis to you :) But I disagree with your statement - I don't think he passes the buck very often at all - He is often covering for other people and very rarely has a go at them for it - Also he's the first one to be encouraging when we concede - I think berating a player for a mistake can be the right thing if it was lack of concentration or something basic - But he doesn't get on people's back when we're doing badly, which I think is the mark of great character 

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26 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I'll leave the emphasis to you :) But I disagree with your statement - I don't think he passes the buck very often at all - He is often covering for other people and very rarely has a go at them for it - Also he's the first one to be encouraging when we concede - I think berating a player for a mistake can be the right thing if it was lack of concentration or something basic - But he doesn't get on people's back when we're doing badly, which I think is the mark of great character 

I recall several occasions where that wasn't the case. He was flapping his arms and pulling faces while it was actually Chris Martin that was showing the leadership qualities, grabbing the ball, encouraging team mates. 

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3 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

I recall several occasions where that wasn't the case. He was flapping his arms and pulling faces while it was actually Chris Martin that was showing the leadership qualities, grabbing the ball, encouraging team mates. 

Okay - I think pitting "I remember this thing vs you remember something else" isn't going to be a productive use of anyone's time - Needless to say we don't agree with each other and neither of us have actual proof to back anything up

I love Martin - He has a go at people when they don't pass him the ball - I love that about him - But he's too selfish to be a leader - Perfect attitude for a goalscorer though

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A thought on this one after last night.  Clearly Keogh is a quality defender at Championship level. He also seemed very much part of the team and group last night....BUT...

I have a suspicion that GR sees Curtis D as his skipper for this season.  If that is the case it is difficult to see Keogh accepting having the captaincy taken from him again.  Is it therefore possible, that a move will happen as an act of kindess/best for all parties situation.

There are very clear differences between the styles of the two based on last nights evidence.  I think I was perhaps more aware of it being so close to the pitch but Keogh wasn't so much leading the team as organising the defence.  Lots of shouts of hold, drop, your man etc.  It's all very shouty.  Shows lots of commitment but also seems somewhat forced.

CD was noticeably different - very calm, talking, explaining, dictating and directing play - those all across the back four and the midfield four in front. 

Both played along side centre back partners who are not at all vocal.  Barley heard a word from Pearce and Forsyth said absolutely zero. 

It was a relatively subtle difference but an important one nonetheless.

Just a thought but I suspect the whole 'if he goes who is better to come in for that money' argument is not going to be hugely valid.  Sometimes it's not about having the best 11 players for your money.  It's more about having a team that gels, people play certain roles and perhaps there is a different shaped piece in GR's jigsaw puzzle.

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2 minutes ago, gccrowdpleaser said:

A thought on this one after last night.  Clearly Keogh is a quality defender at Championship level. He also seemed very much part of the team and group last night....BUT...

I have a suspicion that GR sees Curtis D as his skipper for this season.  If that is the case it is difficult to see Keogh accepting having the captaincy taken from him again.  Is it therefore possible, that a move will happen as an act of kindess/best for all parties situation.

There are very clear differences between the styles of the two based on last nights evidence.  I think I was perhaps more aware of it being so close to the pitch but Keogh wasn't so much leading the team as organising the defence.  Lots of shouts of hold, drop, your man etc.  It's all very shouty.  Shows lots of commitment but also seems somewhat forced.

CD was noticeably different - very calm, talking, explaining, dictating and directing play - those all across the back four and the midfield four in front. 

Both played along side centre back partners who are not at all vocal.  Barley heard a word from Pearce and Forsyth said absolutely zero. 

It was a relatively subtle difference but an important one nonetheless.

Just a thought but I suspect the whole 'if he goes who is better to come in for that money' argument is not going to be hugely valid.  Sometimes it's not about having the best 11 players for your money.  It's more about having a team that gels, people play certain roles and perhaps there is a different shaped piece in GR's jigsaw puzzle.

He had it taken off him before and it didn't make him put a transfer request in. I would guess he's a big enough man to accept that if Davies is considered better captain material that he would just concentrate on his game and do his utmost for the team, as always.

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Just now, EnigmaRam said:

He had it taken off him before and it didn't make him put a transfer request in. I would guess he's a big enough man to accept that if Davies is considered better captain material that he would just concentrate on his game and do his utmost for the team, as always.

Not suggesting for a second he would put in a transfer request.  Or throw his toys out of the pram.  One thing you can say about him, I think, is that he is a superb professional.

I'm just not sure how it would fit into the squad that you ask people to stop following one leader and listening to another when the old leader is stood next to him.  If Keogh plays better when he is shouting, bawling and flapping great - but if part of the process of changing the culture is to bring a more calm approach, which I believe it is under Rowett, then I see CD as a better fit.

Just an opinion and we'll see how it plays out between now and end of the window.

 

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1 minute ago, gccrowdpleaser said:

Not suggesting for a second he would put in a transfer request.  Or throw his toys out of the pram.  One thing you can say about him, I think, is that he is a superb professional.

I'm just not sure how it would fit into the squad that you ask people to stop following one leader and listening to another when the old leader is stood next to him.  If Keogh plays better when he is shouting, bawling and flapping great - but if part of the process of changing the culture is to bring a more calm approach, which I believe it is under Rowett, then I see CD as a better fit.

Just an opinion and we'll see how it plays out between now and end of the window.

 

I think the only way Keogh would go is if we get a silly offer for him and we have a replacement lined up. Can't see it myself but who knows. 

If he went I would have liked Bartley or Roberts and Roberts has already gone. Can't see many more that would be of equal calibre although I'm sure there's many out there we haven't even heard of

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11 minutes ago, gccrowdpleaser said:

A thought on this one after last night.  Clearly Keogh is a quality defender at Championship level. He also seemed very much part of the team and group last night....BUT...

I have a suspicion that GR sees Curtis D as his skipper for this season.  If that is the case it is difficult to see Keogh accepting having the captaincy taken from him again.  Is it therefore possible, that a move will happen as an act of kindess/best for all parties situation.

There are very clear differences between the styles of the two based on last nights evidence.  I think I was perhaps more aware of it being so close to the pitch but Keogh wasn't so much leading the team as organising the defence.  Lots of shouts of hold, drop, your man etc.  It's all very shouty.  Shows lots of commitment but also seems somewhat forced.

CD was noticeably different - very calm, talking, explaining, dictating and directing play - those all across the back four and the midfield four in front. 

Both played along side centre back partners who are not at all vocal.  Barley heard a word from Pearce and Forsyth said absolutely zero. 

It was a relatively subtle difference but an important one nonetheless.

Just a thought but I suspect the whole 'if he goes who is better to come in for that money' argument is not going to be hugely valid.  Sometimes it's not about having the best 11 players for your money.  It's more about having a team that gels, people play certain roles and perhaps there is a different shaped piece in GR's jigsaw puzzle.

I was suprised how deep Keogh played, almost like sweeper at times.

But you might have a point there (without saing it); it's not unheard that two commanding CB's simply doesn't fit as a partnership.

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2 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said:

I think the only way Keogh would go is if we get a silly offer for him and we have a replacement lined up. Can't see it myself but who knows. 

If he went I would have liked Bartley or Roberts and Roberts has already gone. Can't see many more that would be of equal calibre although I'm sure there's many out there we haven't even heard of

I think it lends itself perfectly to a young, up and coming centre back from one of the top end Prem Sides.  Quick over the ground and learning their trade alongside an experience pro in CD.

Perhaps Tuanzebe from United.  Joe Gomez from Liverpool, Fosu-Mensah at United.  It would bring some energy.

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10 minutes ago, gccrowdpleaser said:

A thought on this one after last night.  Clearly Keogh is a quality defender at Championship level. He also seemed very much part of the team and group last night....BUT...

 

I think I was perhaps more aware of it being so close to the pitch but Keogh wasn't so much leading the team as organising the defence.  Lots of shouts of hold, drop, your man etc.  It's all very shouty.  Shows lots of commitment but also seems somewhat forced.

 

Both played along side centre back partners who are not at all vocal.  Barley heard a word from Pearce and Forsyth said absolutely zero. 

Interesting assessment but I'd take the exact opposite thought - Rowett isn't exactly shy about being brutally honest/direct with people and I would have thought the fact Keogh started as captain says that he has faith in him to do the role

I like him shouting - We don't have enough of that

I liked watching Pearce last season as he worked well in the LHS unit (split the defence in half - each half works together and then Keogh coordinates) and he used to talk to the LB all game

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1 minute ago, cheron85 said:

Interesting assessment but I'd take the exact opposite thought - Rowett isn't exactly shy about being brutally honest/direct with people and I would have thought the fact Keogh started as captain says that he has faith in him to do the role

I like him shouting - We don't have enough of that

I liked watching Pearce last season as he worked well in the LHS unit (split the defence in half - each half works together and then Keogh coordinates) and he used to talk to the LB all game

It'll be interesting to see what happens.  I don't think playing first or second half has any bearing on it really.  There is no doubt in my mind that, fitness permitting, Wisdom and CD will be starters in the first game of the season and both played the second half.  Interestingly, now you mention it, Pearce player on the right side of the two last night.

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My only concern is we only have 3 recognised fit CBs as last night showed. So to get rid of another would be suicide, especially our 1st/2nd best depending on your opinion. Keogh so got 2/3 years longer left in him than Davies age wise, rarely injured and the best ball player. 

It is an area we probably need to look at a younger understudy for the future though.

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3 minutes ago, gccrowdpleaser said:

It'll be interesting to see what happens.  I don't think playing first or second half has any bearing on it really.  There is no doubt in my mind that, fitness permitting, Wisdom and CD will be starters in the first game of the season and both played the second half.  Interestingly, now you mention it, Pearce player on the right side of the two last night.

He's played their in the rest of his career and is right footed so makes sense - If you think about our central defenders we now have two RHS and two LHS (when Shackell is back)

I wasn't counting too much on first half vs second - More on the fact that on the official site there wasn't a (C) next to any player in the second half - Assume the armband went to Davies? Could be reading way too much into a typo on the website to be honest

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2 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said:

My only concern is we only have 3 recognised fit CBs as last night showed. So to get rid of another would be suicide, especially our 1st/2nd best depending on your opinion. Keogh so got 2/3 years longer left in him than Davies age wise, rarely injured and the best ball player. 

It is an area we probably need to look at a younger understudy for the future though.

Broadly agree with that. If Keogh and Davies establish themselves then when Shackelll is fit either him or Pearce will be replaced by a young up and coming CB. Probably the next transfer window though.

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1 minute ago, sage said:

Broadly agree with that. If Keogh and Davies establish themselves then when Shackelll is fit either him or Pearce will be replaced by a young up and coming CB. Probably the next transfer window though.

Alex Cover. 

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